I was wondering how much more powerful the cartridge developed for the .38.44 HD was compared to the .38 Special. Is it actually the first step taken towards developing the .357 magnum round. Any thoughts or info would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Ballistics of the 38/44 Hd cartridge
- Thread starter Brett V
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The factory load wasn’t equal to old Elmer’s almost blowem up handloads. I think factory specks were for a 158 gr bullet at around 1145 FPS out of a 6.5” revolver. Well below the .357 mag but also well above std .38 spl loads.
smithra_66
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The 38 Special "Super Police" was loaded with a 200 gr. round nose lead bullet travelling at just under 700 fps for the standard factory loading.
ddixie884
Well-known member
At least one of the Hi-Speed loads gave 1060 and another was 1120fps these may have been 5" barrels as most early 38-44 HDs had that barrel length. I like to use either 160gr swcbb commercial machine cast or Speer 158gr swchp over 11gr A2400 with a standard primer for a little over 1,000fps. I shoot these in Various .357 and .38spl guns including M-15-3 and -2 4". I don't load 12 and 13gr for storage use as I don't really want to get them mixed up. An airweight J-frame would be inappropriate for such use.......
They shoot good in my Rossi M-92 also.......
They shoot good in my Rossi M-92 also.......
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rockquarry
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I don't know when factory .38-44 ammo was discontinued. The 1962 Shooter's Bible shows a 150 gr. (maybe 158 gr.) lead bullet at 1065 fps. I think this is a bit short of the original .38-44 loading, but was the about the hottest heavy bullet loading at the time.
I have one 38 special manual that shows a 158 lead bullet at 1020 fps
out of a M10 with A2400 powder.
My little J frame snub nose told me it had enough A2400 at 10 grs at 835 fps.
My Lyman booklet does not list 2400 powder for the 38 special 158 or 160 lead bullets
but has a +P load of Unique at 982 for the 38 special case.
If I remember right, Keith used revolvers with frames heavier than a K frame for his "Killer loads" but I may be wrong?
out of a M10 with A2400 powder.
My little J frame snub nose told me it had enough A2400 at 10 grs at 835 fps.
My Lyman booklet does not list 2400 powder for the 38 special 158 or 160 lead bullets
but has a +P load of Unique at 982 for the 38 special case.
If I remember right, Keith used revolvers with frames heavier than a K frame for his "Killer loads" but I may be wrong?
ddixie884
Well-known member
Yes he did but he used a good bit more 2400 than I do. I don't recommend you use this load but I do. I also use 5 to 5.5gr Unique, 6gr PP, and 6gr of VV-340. The cases fall out of my K-frame..........
cowboy4evr
Well-known member
Using the Keith swc , 173 gr in a 38 special case I found that 12.5 grs of 2400 gave better accuracy and no sticky case ejecting . I did try the 13.5 gr load first . Skeeters load in a 38 special case with 2400 powder used the Lyman 358156 bullet which is completely different . I use that combo yet today but only in a 357 magnum revolver , as it was intended . It's a winner . Regards Paul
Excerpt from:
38 Special (+P) and 38-44: Pet Loads for Heavy Framed Revolvers - Handloader #304 (Oct-2016), Brian Pearce
...while (+P) rated ammunition was listed with an average working pressure of 20,000 psi, a significant pressure decrease when compared to vintage .38-44 loads. The velocity of 158-grain bullets in (+P) ammunition decreased by more than 200 fps when compared to the .38-44 loads.
Currently there are no industry pressure standards for the .38-44. Having fired tens of thousands of .38-44 loads in Colt Single Actions and Smith & Wesson N-frame revolvers at targets, pests, varmints and big game, I appreciate their accuracy and performance.
Many loads can approach or duplicate .357 Magnum ballistics, which makes them suitable for long-range rockchucks, coyotes or deer-sized game under ideal conditions.
For these reasons I have listed .38-44 data for heavy-framed revolvers that are in good condition, with the test gun being an early post-World War II Smith & Wesson 38/44 Outdoorsman.
Many of the maximum loads approximate .357 Magnum pressures (35,000 psi) and should never be used in light-framed .38 Special revolvers.
.
38 Special (+P) and 38-44: Pet Loads for Heavy Framed Revolvers - Handloader #304 (Oct-2016), Brian Pearce
...while (+P) rated ammunition was listed with an average working pressure of 20,000 psi, a significant pressure decrease when compared to vintage .38-44 loads. The velocity of 158-grain bullets in (+P) ammunition decreased by more than 200 fps when compared to the .38-44 loads.
Currently there are no industry pressure standards for the .38-44. Having fired tens of thousands of .38-44 loads in Colt Single Actions and Smith & Wesson N-frame revolvers at targets, pests, varmints and big game, I appreciate their accuracy and performance.
Many loads can approach or duplicate .357 Magnum ballistics, which makes them suitable for long-range rockchucks, coyotes or deer-sized game under ideal conditions.
For these reasons I have listed .38-44 data for heavy-framed revolvers that are in good condition, with the test gun being an early post-World War II Smith & Wesson 38/44 Outdoorsman.
Many of the maximum loads approximate .357 Magnum pressures (35,000 psi) and should never be used in light-framed .38 Special revolvers.
.
158 gr. SWC, 12 grs. 2400, 6 in. Python, 1194 FPS. I'm thinking the 38/44 load was 1150-1175 FPS. The 12 grs. of 2400 should only be shot in .357M guns. Larry
SuperMan
Well-known member
Have settled on the Lyman/Thompson 357156 bullet in the original Lyman mold or one that is made by MP molds that have HP pins and a plain base option also.
Using 6.0 grains of Unique:
S&W 649 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
Round primers and cases drop right out even in the 649.
Buffalo Bore has a .38 Special +P round that has a gas checked 158 grain soft cast HP that is rated for J-frame Smiths that run slightly faster than my load. It is FAR more impressive than the lack luster vaulted FBI load that barely makes 900 fps in a 4"... This is a REAL .38-44 load but for whatever reason is only listed as +P.
Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM&t=6s[/ame]
...or if you want the penetration of a solid...
38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
What I don't quite understand, not taking into account old guns, is why with any newly manufactured .38 Special, these same companies also chamber the exact same guns in 9mm which has a way higher pressure rating than .38 Special and no one worries about blowing up their guns... And does anyone really believe there is any difference in cylinder strength between a S&W 65 and a 64 or 67... Ammo companies are forced to keep .38 Special pressures low because of all the old, antique and substandard guns out there.
Bob
Using 6.0 grains of Unique:
S&W 649 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
Round primers and cases drop right out even in the 649.
Buffalo Bore has a .38 Special +P round that has a gas checked 158 grain soft cast HP that is rated for J-frame Smiths that run slightly faster than my load. It is FAR more impressive than the lack luster vaulted FBI load that barely makes 900 fps in a 4"... This is a REAL .38-44 load but for whatever reason is only listed as +P.
Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM&t=6s[/ame]
...or if you want the penetration of a solid...
38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
What I don't quite understand, not taking into account old guns, is why with any newly manufactured .38 Special, these same companies also chamber the exact same guns in 9mm which has a way higher pressure rating than .38 Special and no one worries about blowing up their guns... And does anyone really believe there is any difference in cylinder strength between a S&W 65 and a 64 or 67... Ammo companies are forced to keep .38 Special pressures low because of all the old, antique and substandard guns out there.
Bob
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rockquarry
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I've mentioned it on this forum before, but if you have a real interest in heavy-duty .38 Special factory loads, handloads and the pressures generated, there is a very interesting two-part article in from fifty years ago in HANDLOADER #26 & #27. Many save these magazines. I don't know if this information is available online.
rockquarry
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I have these, but my computer skills remain on a first grade level; have no idea how to do this. Perhaps someone else can help.
https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/m...rts/@.id==2/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrinLaunch
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This is a table from a Handloader article written by Mike V.
Ok this link does not work. I don't know if it's the site permissions or my stinkin iPad, but the pic will not load. I have never been able to load a pic on this site. I have a couple of the tables, if anyone wants a copy, msg me and I'll do my best to get you a copy
Tim sends
I
This is a table from a Handloader article written by Mike V.
Ok this link does not work. I don't know if it's the site permissions or my stinkin iPad, but the pic will not load. I have never been able to load a pic on this site. I have a couple of the tables, if anyone wants a copy, msg me and I'll do my best to get you a copy
Tim sends
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Phil Sharpe loads
Phil Sharpe, whose efforts contributed to the 357, loaded the 38 (specifically for 38-44 revolvers) to the same pressure and ballistics as the 357. He kept overall length identical, seating the bullets in the 38 case further out. This is why Lyman sold the Thompson designed 358156 mold, with double crimp grooves.
He (Sharpe) had his loads pressure tested, and published them in his book, Complete Guide to Handloading.
See attached....
Phil Sharpe, whose efforts contributed to the 357, loaded the 38 (specifically for 38-44 revolvers) to the same pressure and ballistics as the 357. He kept overall length identical, seating the bullets in the 38 case further out. This is why Lyman sold the Thompson designed 358156 mold, with double crimp grooves.
He (Sharpe) had his loads pressure tested, and published them in his book, Complete Guide to Handloading.
See attached....
Attachments
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In answer to the OP's question, yes, the 38/44 was an early step in developing the magnum. Some early, brave individuals decided to load a 38 cartridge to the max to discover the breaking point (they found it!), but they were fired in an N frame. Thus the 38/44 (38 special cartridge in a 44 frame). These experiments led directly to the magnum. SW lengthened the case a tenth of an inch to avoid interchanging the more powerful cartridge in a lighter "38 frame." Thus was born the .357 magnum that went on to see even higher pressures and velocities. I shoot my three different 38/44s at about 950 fps, using Unique behind a Missouri Bullet Company 158 g. LSWC. Great accuracy and manageable recoil. I'm sure those big N frames can take more, but enough for me and my old guns. My understanding from experts here is that the original factory loads approximated 1150 fps. There is a big space between a +P and a magnum.
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38-44: Pet Loads
From the Handloader #304 article:
---------------------------------------
38 Special (+P) and 38-44: Pet Loads for Heavy Framed Revolvers
.
158 Hornady HP-XTP, COAL: 1.453"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1187mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1217mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1279mv
.
160 Lyman #358156, COAL: 1.525"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1216mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1227mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1245mv
2400 @ 13.5gr. = 1296mv (Skeeter Skelton load)
.
173 Lyman #358429, COAL: 1.532"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1230mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1281mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1359mv
2400 @ 13.5gr. = 1409mv (Elmer Keith heavy load)
.
A 6-1/2" barreled Smith & Wesson 38/44 0utdoorsman (pre-Model 23) was used to test fire the above loads.
Starline cases and CCI 500 primers were used throughout.
Bullet diameter: .357-inch jacketed and .358-inch cast; maximum case length: 1.155"; trim to length: 1.145 inches.
.
From the Handloader #304 article:
---------------------------------------
38 Special (+P) and 38-44: Pet Loads for Heavy Framed Revolvers
.
158 Hornady HP-XTP, COAL: 1.453"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1187mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1217mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1279mv
.
160 Lyman #358156, COAL: 1.525"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1216mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1227mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1245mv
2400 @ 13.5gr. = 1296mv (Skeeter Skelton load)
.
173 Lyman #358429, COAL: 1.532"
----------------------------------------
2400 @ 12.0gr. = 1230mv
2400 @ 12.5gr. = 1281mv
2400 @ 13.0gr. = 1359mv
2400 @ 13.5gr. = 1409mv (Elmer Keith heavy load)
.
A 6-1/2" barreled Smith & Wesson 38/44 0utdoorsman (pre-Model 23) was used to test fire the above loads.
Starline cases and CCI 500 primers were used throughout.
Bullet diameter: .357-inch jacketed and .358-inch cast; maximum case length: 1.155"; trim to length: 1.145 inches.
.
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