.45 Super? 25-2?

My M.O. is to take one gun out of the safe and shoot it alone for a while until I can hit with it. Not a very good shot so this type of practice works for me.

Recently I'v been taking my six inch 25-2 to the range. Very fun and accurate gun. Started thinking about the .45 Super round.

Any one here have experience with it in the 25-2? Likes and dislikes?

Your opinion on it for large critter defense e.g. Black bear?

Would it accelerate wear over much on the 25-2?

How much velocity will you lose due to the cylinder gap- compared to a auto pistol?

Any input discussion welcome-

Thanks!

I think you got a good excuse to buy a Model 29. I would just keep shooting .45 ACP in the 25.

Edit. What I really mean is. The cylinder walls on the 25 are really thin

Thanks- I would not shoot a steady diet of .45 Super in the 25, it would be a once in a while thing.

Are the 45 Supers you're thinking about commercial loads or handloads?

Since the 45 Super isn't a standardized SAAMI cartridge what pressure they're loaded to varies.

Just like a +P+ designation doesn't tell you a lot.

Modern M25/325/625 don't have any problems with 45 Super loads.

They're a good jump in power but I don't think I'd purposely take on a bear with them.

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It is quite easy to attain 1000 fps with a hard cast 255 grain SWC in a 5" auto pistol...which is pretty much identical performance for the .45 Colt in the original black powder loading. Anything you think the .45 Colt will work for...so will the .45 Super...

If you're thinking bear, look into "sectional density". Changed my view on ammo some.

Been there, done that out of curiosity. The 45 Super will do everything the 10mm will do.

There's nothng wrong with the advice to "just get a .44 magnum," however I wanted to be able to use a 1911 for large critter defense out west in a smaller, flatter package than my 629. To start with, I converted a stainless Colt Series 80 with a few springs (Wolf 22-pound recoil spring with matching firing pin spring and 25-pound main spring) and a square bottom firing pin stop. Handled 230 grain Buffalo Bore easily. (The cost of a box of this boutique ammo was more than the cost of the 1911 parts I needed for the conversion). The only functional issue was heavier recoil causing the bullets to hit quite high at 50 yards and beyond. Since close quarters protection was what I wanted that wasn't a problem.

Interestingly, Remington 230 +P brass now falls pretty much at my feet with that set up. It's easily reversed if I want to use lighter loads.

I have a M1937 Brazilian, a M25-2 and a pre-26. Since I satisfied my curiosity it really hasn't occurred to me to try Supers in my 25-2. I would have no worries about shooting the 25-2 with the same BB load, but see no need to stress the older guns, and if I'm going to carry and use a revolver that large one of my .44s will do just fine with a bit more power than the 45 Super produces.

I researched this quite throughly before going this route, and those who shoot 45 Super in their 625s reported no problems. The 45 Super brass has the same external dimensions as 45 ACP, but the brass is much tougher in the Super. Now that I'm thinking about this again, maybe I'll step out back later and try Supers in my M25-2. Will report back if I do it.

Ultimately a Colt Delta Elite 10mm fell into my lap, and I decided that I would put the 45 Super loads I have aside in order to preclude the possibilty of loading them in one of my unmodified 1911s by mistake. They probably could handle it, but why cause a potential problem?

If you don't have a .44 magnum and don't want to buy one I'd say try a few Supers in your 25-2. Yes, you are likely increasing wear on your gun, but so does shooting lighter loads over time. If you get easy extraction after one cylinder you are probably good to go.

Buffalo Bore also loads Heavy .45AR. Check their web site. I believe they offer the same basic power factor as .45Super. No worries about them ending up in a weaker auto.......

If you don't shoot standard .45 ACP or Auto Rim loads well, you'll do worse with a high powered loading, maybe much worse. Consider, after you become skilled with standard loads, trying the heavier .45 ACP revolver loads that Sierra lists in their load manual. Not exactly magnum loads, but considerably heavier than standard loads.

Try some 255gr swc seated to the crimp groove on top of 6gr PP and a standard primer It should give you approx 800fps or a little more. Equal to most .45Colt factory loads..........

The .45 Super

Source Citation is from The 45 Super Page and is for informational use only for those interested in the .45 Super. < you can more information at that source citation.

The .45 Super is a large and powerful smokeless powder center fire metallic firearm cartridge developed in 1988 by Dean Grennell, a well-known writer in the firearms field as well as managing editor of Gun World magazine. Born of a desire to update and improve the 1906 era .45 ACP, the .45 Super cartridge is dimensionally identical with the older .45 ACP round. A notable difference is that it has a thicker case wall than its ACP brethren cartridge, and the Super is loaded to higher pressures, which makes it a substantially more powerful round than the standard .45 ACP. It offers an average 300 foot per second (ft/s) improvement in muzzle velocity. The cartridge was co-developed by Tom Fergerson and Ace Hindman.

In 1988, a Gun World article detailed Grennell's efforts to update the .45 ACP for the 21st Century, a difficult endeavor due to the inherent design limitations of the veteran round. Introduced in the early 20th Century, the .45 ACP has a relatively large case capacity which was dictated by the relatively low pressure powders in use at the time of its development; as a result, it operates in the modest range of 19,900 – 22,000 Copper units of pressure (CUP). In contrast, current day cartridges using modern nitrocellulose powders generating higher pressure can produce a CUP in the 28,000 – 39,000 range. As it was originally designed for lower pressures, the .45 ACP case has relatively thin walls and weak case head and web specifications; it cannot reliably contain increased pressures. The layout of most M1911 pistols' chambers presents yet another challenge in that the case head is not fully supported in the cartridge feed ramp area; pushing the envelope in this critical area with too much pressure risks a catastrophic failure, resulting in a case bursting in the chamber. To rule out such a dangerous possibility, Grennell chose to use brass formed from the stronger and more modern .451 Detonics, shortened to the overall length of the .45 ACP design. Support for the case head was also addressed by adopting a new chamber and barrel design which supports the base area of the case. Other areas of the model 1911 pistol design were also strengthened, including the addition of a heavier recoil spring and a strengthened firing pin redesigned to prevent primer material from flowing into the firing pin channel under high chamber pressures.

Manufacturers such as Heckler & Koch (USP and HK45), and Springfield Armory, Inc. currently offer pistols rated to fire .45 Super ‘out of the box’. Although they will chamber, the firing of .45 Super rounds in non-rated standard .45 ACP automatics is not recommended, as doing so risks a case failure in the unsupported chamber and at the very least would batter the slide and almost certainly shorten the life of the pistol.

The .450 SMC is a variant of the .45 Super with a smaller primer pocket, which is touted as being stronger due to having more brass in the web area.

A number of bullet weight and velocity combinations are offered in .45 Super, including a 185-grain (12.0 g) bullet propelled at 1,300 ft/s, a 200-grain (13 g) at 1,200 ft/s, and a 230-grain (15 g) at 1,100 ft/s. as well as other weight/velocities provided by Super Express cartridges and Buffalo Bore, such as 255grain at 1050 ft/s.

Sedalia, Missouri based Starline Brass company eventually began marketing factory manufactured brass cases for the chambering, taking the round out of the obscure wildcat cartridge realm. In addition, The .45 Super of Cleveland, Texas (Ace Custom 45s, Inc.) trademarked the .45 Super name in 1994 and currently markets factory .45 Super pistols, as well as gunsmith adaptations of .45 ACP pistols, and .45 ACP conversion kits. Texas Ammunition and Buffalo Bore offer factory loaded ammunition which is marketed by Ace Custom and others. The Dan Wesson 460 Rowland will also chamber a .45 Super.

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Now if S&W would just make a "limited run" of revolvers specifically designed for long-term use with the updated .45 Super with Performance Center tuned actions, cylinders cut for full moons and chamfered chambers, it make us big bore revolver shooters HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY!!!

Can I get an AMEN?

Thanks all good info- looking at buffalo bore .45 super intend it to just get a few boxes for 'just in case' use, would not be a steady thing. As right now I do not reload.

.45 Super Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am wondering though about long term use effects undue wear on my 25-2 out of curiosity. If there was regular use of .45 super.

255 grain semi wadcutter buffalo bore etc-

Ugly Hombre said:

Thanks all good info- looking at buffalo bore .45 super intend it to just get a few boxes for 'just in case' use, would not be a steady thing. As right now I do not reload.

.45 Super Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am wondering though about long term use effects undue wear on my 25-2 out of curiosity. If there was regular use of .45 super.

255 grain semi wadcutter buffalo bore etc-

Click to expand...

Enjoy your gun. Just don't over do it with the .45 Supers and save them for "emergency" bear defense only in my opinion.

Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo makes some extreme penetrating ammo that can be used in a .45 ACP for your consideration.

Penetration is the most important element of terminal ballstics when defending against large critters. Paul Harrel has a YT video that shows the penetration of 45ACP FMJ at standard/military service velocity compared to 10mm. Thought provoking. Regular 45 ball ammo is nothing to sneeze at.

Ugly Hombre said:

Thanks all good info- looking at buffalo bore .45 super intend it to just get a few boxes for 'just in case' use, would not be a steady thing. As right now I do not reload.

.45 Super Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am wondering though about long term use effects undue wear on my 25-2 out of curiosity. If there was regular use of .45 super.

255 grain semi wadcutter buffalo bore etc-

Click to expand...

While perusing the .45Super on the Buffalo Bore site, check out the +P .45AR listings I believe you will find them similar.......

Spoke with one of the tecs at Buffalo Bore a few years ago and he stated they have a large clientele that use their .45 Super ammo in 625s...didn't think to ask him about 25-2s...

Have had two 25-2s over the years and was able to get 185-200 grain bullets up into the 12-1300s with no issues using AR brass. Did not try any heavier bullets.

I think that the weakest point of the .45 ACP revolvers isn't the cylinder wall thickness but the barrel shank thickness and the amount it extends unsupported into the frame window. A lot of heavy loads could easily lead to cracking the forcing cone especially if one used jacketed bullets..

Bob

I have been shooting the 45 SUPER for 3+ decades so far.

ANY higher power cartridge wears firearms faster than any lower powered cartridge.

Hard ball 45 ACP wears your gun more than the 45 target ammunition.
45 SUPER wears guns more than 45ACP.
460 Rowland wears guns faster than 45 SUPER

My attitude is so what.

If/When something wears out then you fix/repair it. This is a non-existent issue that is brought up so often by naysayers that regular folks are starting to worry about it as well

In your experience as a shooter, how many people do you know that have worn out their gun?
How many people have you heard about that have worn out a gun?

There are over 300,000,000 guns in civilian hands in America. If worn out guns were a BIG issue, there would be a refurbishing industry for those worn out guns. A worn out gun is the exception, not the rule

This is all right along the lines as the worry that the cylinder walls are thinner. So What? As long as they are strong enough to do the job who cares if they are thinner than some other caliber.

44 Magnum cylinder walls are thinner than 41 Magnum cylinder walls. So what.


My 45 SUPER shooting has been mixed 50/50 between revolvers vs. Autos

Most of my auto use of the 45 SUPER has been in my various full size HK pistols

The bulk of my revolver shooting has been with my 625 V-Comp because I was using it for pin matches. Not much has been through my carbon steel Model 25s, but there is no reason not to, I just tend to shoot the stainless guns for easier cleanup

The issue of 45 SUPER vs. 45 SMC has nothing to do with web strength of the brass. In order to avoid paying royalties to the folks that own the name 45 SUPER, another similar but not identical cartridge was created.

It is just about the money

Taking in consideration, velocity and sectional density of bullet, let’s not forget the large meta plate, how many bears can one do in with 25-2 using 45 Super before gun is worn out.

What kind of bear are we talking about? Black bear, brown bear, polar bear, there is a difference.

stansdds said:

What kind of bear are we talking about? Black bear, brown bear, polar bear, there is a difference.

Click to expand...

The OP stated Black Bear.

There is however a difference between the "average" 125-150lb. black bear and a 400-500lb trophy sized black bear. There is a lot of heavy hide, muscle, and heavy bone difference to penetrate to reach the vitals. Oh, and bears are fast when they want to be. Horses can outrun bears in a race. But a bear has a quick initial burst and could catch a horse over a short span, especially in the woods. They can go from zero to 35 miles per hour in a blink. So, a bear can catch a horse even though horses are faster than bears -
Can a Horse Outrun a Bear, Cheetah, Wolf, or Lion?.

Don't forget the Bear Spray.