Flying Ashtrays

photocosmo · Mar 30, 2009

From time to time I've heard/read the term "flying astray". Before the indoor smoking ban I thought it was literal but now I suspect it refers to a specific caliber and type of ammo! Could anyone please edumicate me on the term? Thanx.

sigp220.45 · Mar 30, 2009

It usually refers to 200 grain .45 ACP hollowpoints - they look like ashtrays. It was originally loaded by Speer.

Here is an article about the original, and its demise.

Andy Taylor · Mar 30, 2009

While sigp220.45 is correct, I have heard the term applied to several .44 & .45 caliber hollow point bullets with large cavities.

photocosmo · Mar 30, 2009

Muchas Gracias sig220.45! The accompanying article was very interesting, informative and made me think about giving up smoking.

moosedog · Mar 30, 2009

I first heard of it in the early 70s in reference to the Super Vel 45 ACP rounds.
They came in 190 gr.

Erich · Mar 30, 2009

+1, sigp220.45.

canoe on the yukon · Mar 30, 2009

Originally posted by Erich:
+1, sigp220.45.

+2.....The first time I heard or read it,it was in reference to the speer 45 cal 200 gr JHP.

photocosmo · Mar 31, 2009

This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.

Texas Star · Mar 31, 2009

Originally posted by photocosmo:
This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.

This is an odd statement, considering that 9mm ball penetrates probably better than .45 hardball. It certainly penetrates until next payday, and that is useful in some applications, as when shooting a big animal.

And you seem to be overestimating the effects of HP loads. I think you may be watching too much TV. Some of what you see and hear about guns is balderdash.

T-Star

Andy Taylor · Mar 31, 2009

Originally posted by photocosmo:
This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.

9mm is more likely to over penetrate than .45.

photocosmo · Mar 31, 2009

Originally posted by Texas Star:

This is an odd statement, considering that 9mm ball penetrates probably better than .45 hardball. It certainly penetrates until next payday, and that is useful in some applications, as when shooting a big animal.

And you seem to be overestimating the effects of HP loads. I think you may be watching too much TV. Some of what you see and hear about guns is balderdash. T-Star

Click to expand...

Actually I was responding to the above-linked article by Mr. Ayoob where-in a steer's head had exploded popping the eyes out because of the extreme "inner-caranial pressure" caused by an HP round. Does this mean that a 38spl. would be more adequately suited to the PD role? I mean; without over-doing it in caliber size and power? Also, where would .357Sig and .40S&W fall into the mix? (I'm sure this has already been explained ad nauseum within the hallowed halls of this fine forum so please excuse my ignorance!)
Oh! BTW Mom, there is absolutely no doubt that I watch too much T.V.!

38-44HD45 · Mar 31, 2009

All handgun rounds that are sufficiently controllable in a carryable handgun are underpowered for stopping "beasts" in the weight range of adult humans. There is no "overdoing it" when the target is trying to kill or rape someone. Handguns are the best self-defense tools because and only because they readily allow one to obey Rule Number One of Gunfighting: Have a gun.

Above posters are correct, i.e., 9x19 ball is more likely to overpenetrate than is .45 ACP ball. I have an autopsy report in my filing cabinet wherein a scumbag of about my height and weight (5'7", 165, muscular) was shot 10 times (justifiably, BTW, so sayeth the Grand Jury) with 9mm ball from ranges between 12 inches and 10 feet. Every round penetrated through and through, including two torso hits that ranged from the region of the clavicle down through the lower abdomen where they exited, reentering and lodging in thigh musculature.

Erich · Mar 31, 2009

9mm ball is a penetrating SOB . . .

photocosmo · Mar 31, 2009

...about my height and weight (5'7", 165, muscular)

WHATEVER!
Well, would an HP round have been more effective in that case?

photocosmo · Mar 31, 2009

Originally posted by 38-44HD4 Every round penetrated through and through, including two torso hits that ranged from the region of the clavicle down through the lower abdomen where they exited, reentering and lodging in thigh musculature.

And another thing...
Maybe the shots shoulda been placed a little bit higher?
I'm just tryin' to get a workable metric here!

38-44HD45 · Mar 31, 2009

Not sure what your problem is cosmo, but you are about to be added to my list of "Ignoreds." Your attitude is unfriendly at best, smartass (not to mention not very educated) at worst. "Workable metric?" Give us all a break. If you want education here, as previously claimed, your approach is not the way to get it.

The shooter peeled the scumbag, who was on probation for aggravated assault at the time, off his buddy by gunfire. When he started shooting, scumbag was on top of buddy on the floor, beating the hell out of him. Shooter was at the head-end of the fray, screaming at the scumbag to get out of his (shooter's) house. Likely, the two clavicle-to-quadriceps shots were the first two fired. Scumbag then stood up, and shooter kept shooting. Shots hit various body parts, including the neck.

Would hollowpoints have helped? Likely so, since they would have been far less likely to overpenetrate, and would have transmitted more energy, maybe requiring less shots fired, but maybe not. Scumbag was double-drunk, too.

Bye.

Guest · Mar 31, 2009

There is really ONLY one conclusion that has proven to be an Absolute about "gun shots" and that is No Two of them are ever the same!

And, maybe once photocosmo gets out of "Kiddie Garden" if he ever does maybe he'll understand this like many of the Adults here already do. But, then again some people have an unlimited supply of 'Ignoramus' that they need to use up!!!

He's already made my "Ignore List".

38-44HD45 · Mar 31, 2009

Thanks, Mike. I thought for a minute that I was being too harsh. My skin is pretty thick, but when a pup with no experience starts with the "whatevers," well, then some things just have to be said. Unfortunately, "education" from TV and the movies teaches many, many folks utter nonsense about guns and ammunition. Hey, it's gotta be real, right? Saw it with my own eyes!

photocosmo · Mar 31, 2009

Oh oh! Here comes the "beatdown"! While I could argue that your posts have been rude, dismissive, and confrontational (no quotes here, reread your own blather) I guess I'm just not as thin-skined as you guys and I'm probably the most ignored poster on this esteemed forum! I would still like to know... and I'll put this as simply as I can; what is the popular opinion as to the most effective ordinance for personal defense? IN GENERAL!

Spotteddog · Mar 31, 2009

John,
He became too large a hemorrhoid to ignored in the political section. After nearly everyone ran out of patience and turned him into a gray stripe, the activity ceased.

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