Ok, I have an original 1873 trap door and a brand new Henry lever action. I want target ammo for now. Can they both handle the same load? I know the Springfield has not been shot in a hundred years but looks excellent. What is cowboy action ammo 500 grain? I have no idea.
What Ammo? Springfield 1873 Trap Door New Henry Lever
- Thread starter AC Man
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Take a look at some reloading sources, even if you don't reload. There are essentially 3 pressure levels for .45-70: 1) Trapdoor; 2) Modern lever actions like Marlin and Henry; and 3) Ruger #1 or similar falling block design. Your Henry should handle pressures just fine at 30000 psi (maybe more?). Marlins can easily handle 35000 psi. Your trapdoor should be kept closer to black powder levels, say a 405 gr pill around 1300 fps or so.
I would assume Cowboy action ammo is loaded at trapdoor levels, but check the rated muzzle velocity on the box. Anything at 400+ gr and 1500+ fps I would probably not run through your trapdoor.
I would assume Cowboy action ammo is loaded at trapdoor levels, but check the rated muzzle velocity on the box. Anything at 400+ gr and 1500+ fps I would probably not run through your trapdoor.
gwpercle
Member
Just use some Common Sense ... the trap door was designed when black powder and lead bullets were the only ammo ... So Low Pressure or black powder ammo only .
Consult Henry about the brass framed Lever action ... I don't have info on that one and don't want to steer you wrong .
Be careful , Stay Safe
Gary
Consult Henry about the brass framed Lever action ... I don't have info on that one and don't want to steer you wrong .
Be careful , Stay Safe
Gary
sigp220.45
US Veteran
A Springfield military rifle of the 19th century shooting poorly? Not terribly shocking....20 miles northeast of Deming, New Mexico are ruins of Fort Cummings, guarding Cooke's Spring and the eastern entrance to Cooke's Canyon. Company G, 1st California Veteran Infantry (Volunteer) were stationed there in 1865 and 1866. Post records, now stored and available at Special Collections, Branson Library, New Mexico State University, record at least one complaint from the quartermaster about, "...undersized ammunition..." for their new Model 1865 Allin Conversion rimfires firing the .58-60-500.
It is not recorded whether Pvts. Thomas Ronan, L. S. Hunter, Charles Devin, and Thomas Daly were armed with the Allins and poor-performing ammo when they were attacked and killed by Mimbres Apaches at Oak Grove on January 17, 1866, but just two of the six-man detail survived by putting up a vicious fight with their rifles from atop a nearby rise covered in large rocks. The Apaches withdrew (unscathed).
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You haven't said whether the 1873 was a rifle or a carbine. Also, what manufacture date are you looking at? IIRC, the early carbines had a different loading than the rifle. There are threads on the forum and other places about this.
I tried to load a Black Hills 45-70 cowboy round in my early 1873 carbine (serial range 12K) and it wouldn't chamber fully. That's when I learned about the early carbine loads.
I ultimately decided not to shoot my carbine due to it's early serial number (pre-Custer). I didn't want to take any chance on damage.
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sigp220.45
US Veteran
All of the cowboy loads I see are 405 grain lead bullets loafing along at about 1300 fps. They still give a solid thump out of a carbine.
Even though I dislike reloading, I still bought a classic Lee Loader in .45/70 just to see if I can get the bullets to hit nose first. Now if I can find some .459 bullets and large rifle primers I’ll be all set.
Even though I dislike reloading, I still bought a classic Lee Loader in .45/70 just to see if I can get the bullets to hit nose first. Now if I can find some .459 bullets and large rifle primers I’ll be all set.
Thanks for all the replies. My 1873 Trap Door is the original big mama Jama no carbine. I appreciate all the info. My local gun shop owner is old like me. Maybe it would be best to take it to him. If for no other reason a safety inspection. It came from the battlefield of Chattanooga Tennessee. Been in the family since 1907 and never fired. Even has the original leather sling and cleaning rod.
“Loafing”, Hehehe. I know 45-70 can do much more than that, but a 400+ grain slug at 1300fps is nothing to sneeze at. It’s “just” 1500 ft/lbs of energy……
venomballistics
Member
unless theres a new model, the Henry is steel. They claimed it'd take all loads.
Though its striking similarity to the Marlin 1895, I'd limit it to levergun load levels.
45-70 is a round best reloaded for a number of reasons.
Personally, I'd lean into the Henry for the utility of the cartridge and load black powder for the trap door ... and only enough to let it know it's still loved.
DWalt
Member
I have always used Pyrodex Rifle in my 1884 Trapdoor rifle, lead bullets only. Sometimes black powder. Faster smokeless rifle powders such as IMR 4227 and 4198 work OK, but keep the MV low. In my Marlin 1895, any load my shoulder can withstand is safe. Just unpleasant.
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smoothshooter
Member
BUY AT LEAST ONE LOADING MANUAL.
Preferably two. One of them should be a Lyman Cast Bullet Loading Manual.
If I were only buying one, it would be the Lyman manual.
Yendor357
Member
StrawHat
Member
The original load for the Springfield Single Shot Rifle was a 405 grain bullet over 70 grains of black powder. It is a decent load. In 1884, the Army changed the rifle load to use a 500 grain bullet over the same powder and charge.
Starting in the early 1890s, Springfield began a program to develop a smokeless powder load for the 45-70. The involvement of the US Army in the Spanish American War curtailed that program.
The Trapdoor action is not as weak as many guess it to be. It was used to develop the smokeless powder 45-70 loads in the discontinued program. It was also used to test rifling twists and patterns for the new 30 Army cartridge to be used in the Krag. Over 100 30 caliber barrels were used in 3 or 4 trapdoor actions for that experiment.
Kevin
Starting in the early 1890s, Springfield began a program to develop a smokeless powder load for the 45-70. The involvement of the US Army in the Spanish American War curtailed that program.
The Trapdoor action is not as weak as many guess it to be. It was used to develop the smokeless powder 45-70 loads in the discontinued program. It was also used to test rifling twists and patterns for the new 30 Army cartridge to be used in the Krag. Over 100 30 caliber barrels were used in 3 or 4 trapdoor actions for that experiment.
Kevin
DWalt
Member
You can read about how weak the TD action is, yet I do not recall seeing anything about an actual TD action failure. Nonetheless, I am not taking any chances. Some years ago, I had a TD carbine, and did fire some warm handloads in it without incident. I should have kept it, but a friend talked me out of it. I use a Lyman 310 tong tool and dies to load for my TD rifle. For historical reasons only.
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I had two trapdoors at different times. I reloaded for them with lead bullets and Pyrodex. I don't recall having used actual black powder though. I did buy a box of commercial ammo that was supposed to be pretty mild but it was smokeless and I did not like the extra sharper recoil so never bought any more ammo and stuck to my loads. Plus no guarantee the commercial stuff would not cause wear and tear if not breakage. These I had with good smooth bores, I never buy guns with ate up bores to shoot. Unless a bore is nice I consider it a decorator item and would not pay alot or beyond value.
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