An example of why I carry

Maybe you "had to be there" but I'll try to tell this story as best I can. Labor Day weekend my wife and I are tent camping on a small river (South Fork of the Judith) in Central MT. We're alone in a tiny, semi-developed campground along a gravel road. It's 6:30 PM and nearly dusk in the canyon. I'm sitting by the fire and my wife is making coffee behind me at the stove. A pickup, coming too fast, pulls off the road and up to our site and slams on the brakes. 2 guys get out without a word, driver is 40 and unshaven, scruffy. Passenger is 30, a big man and cleaner cut. Passenger immediately heads for where my wife is cooking. I stand up and say "Can I help you?". He stops. Driver, never looking at me says "we need help". Driver tells a long story about how they are supposed to help move cattle, were drinking while getting directions to the "pasture" and are lost. He asks me where the "pastures" are. He never looks me in the eye once this whole time. When I try to answer he talks over me and becomes increasingly irritated, as if I have info but won't help. He still won't look at me -- looks down at the ground. He is working himself up to do something. The passenger IS looking at me but not menacingly - I'd call him very uncomfortable. In fact, as the driver gets more agitated, the passenger backs away from both of us, as if he wants nothing to do with what is about to happen. Now he's 15 feet away and the driver about 10. I'm calm, polite and try to tell the driver what little I know about the area. Finally, the driver looks at me for the first time. It's a "sizing-me-up" look if I've ever seen one. I smile at him. Whether it's because I'm bigger than he first thought, or more confident than he hoped, or because I've had my left hand in my front pants pocket the whole time; I can see him changing his mind. Without another word he gets back in the truck. The passenger flashes me a look I interpreted as apologetic and gets in too. They leave. The whole episode takes maybe 10 minutes.

I don't want to scare my wife. She looks shaken. I laugh the whole thing off. She tells me all she could think of was "where was the gun?" I laugh and tell her that "one of the guns" was in my front pants pocket. I'm her hero. I don't sleep well that night. It's the next day before I let myself think the whole thing through and confront the realization that our well-being, maybe our lives, were in danger.

Here's my opinion. Those two were looking for trouble. I think he saw "an old duffer" sitting by a camp fire with no other campers in the area and decided to start something. I think that although I AM an old duffer (63) I appeared confident, unwilling to take his bait and not afraid of him. It was MUCH easier to act in this fashion because I was ready to defend my wife and myself if necessary. I'm not saying it might not have ended badly. They could have been armed, also. I AM saying that having that S&W, a model 38 I've carried off and on for many years, in my pocket allowed me to deal with the situation in a calm, reasoned way that got the right result.

Anyway, I'm posting this just to remind all of you that life can turn on a dime. Fortune favors the prepared.

Great job, Larry. Glad to hear things worked out. Stay safe!

I have said this many times. Demeanier counts for everything. I have been in a number of situations like that. If you have a snub in your pocket it gives you the same demeanier without haveing to flash a gun.
I could give several similar examples as yours but many here would call me a liar, they were so far out.

A couple of days ago the wife and I were going to a motercycle picnic and we were taking the gdaughter, who is 4. As grandmonsters will, she spilled a little of her drink in the back seat. We pulled over and granny attacked the problem. Her and the Gd were outside of the car, and when done, everybody loads back up and a mini-van skids to a stop behind us. Out gets a young fella, shaved head, black wife beater tee, and black and white parachute pants. He reminded me of a "TV stero" of the east european gangster type. As he is approaching us, he reaches into his right front packet and leaves his hand there the whole time. I place my hand beside me, out of his sight. I carry strong side right in one of Ray's excellant holsters. He approaches, stops short when he see's me, and asks if we were OK. I answer yes, we had a small spill and had to clean it up. He then muttered something I couldn't understand, turned on his heels and left. Once in the van, he peeled out around me, cut through a turnaround and headed the other way. The wife and I looked at each other, and her first comment was, "Are you carrying?" Ironically, I wasn't. I have 2 opinions on this. 1 he was up to no good. 2 he was a young LEO trying to be helpful, protecting himself, and needs wardrobe help. That's what I told the wife. I personally believe he wasn't expecting to see me, and placement of my right hand deterred him enough to send him on his way.

BTW, OP did a good job IMO.

Larry, I'm happy to read that everything turned out well for you and your wife. That is the kind of situation that can turn nasty in a heartbeat. Thugs seem to have the animal instinct to sense a victim's fear but your level headed thinking and actions diffused the situation.

Good job, I'm glad you were prepared.
About 10 years ago I was listening to a radio call in show about gun control. One of the call in guests was Josh Sugarman of what was then called Handgun Control. He was trying to make the point that guns are rarely used by private citizens in self defense. To prove his point he quoted a statistic from I believe the FBI that said according to the most recent years statistics private citizens had shot and killed criminals only 145 times, proving how extremely rarely guns are used defensively.
I called the program and unfortunately Mr. Sugarman was no longer on the air. I told the host (Jim Bohannon) that I agreed with the figure of 145 shootings resulting in killed criminals. But I remarked that he should consider what Mr. Sugarman conveniently left out. How many times did a citizen produce a firearm and scare the criminal away, or hold him for police? How many times did a citizen shoot and miss? How many times did did a citizen shoot and WOUND a criminal and not kill him? I guess his only measure of success is a dead bad guy.
The host admitted that was a good point, even though he appeared to be anti gun. He asked me if I had ever had occasion to use a gun defensively and I told him yes, and not a shot was fired. (I'll save that story for another time, it's a good one). The point is the antis use statistics that hide the true facts from people, and unfortunately, those people vote.

Larry, A hearty "Well done sir!" We have been out camping for the last 12 days (and 1800 miles). Most of it in fairly well populated campgrounds but for a few wonderful nights we were the only folks around. While my bride is not a huge fan of guns she always makes sure that I am armed before we leave. This last trip I kept the MP9c within arms reach 24/7. I also had my anti bear gun, a six inch Dan Wesson V-44 Magnum with 305 grain Buffalo Bore's in easy reach. The last campground we were in, Christopher Creek northeast of Payson, AZ, had a problem black bear earlier this summer. After three relocations and more than a couple of scary encounters they finally had to put him down.

I'm inclined to believe that we will more likely have a two legged problem vs four but remain prepared for any eventuality. Keeping your cool as you did was commendable and absolutely the right thing to do...especially since you were prepared for any unfortunate escalation. We are heading back out day after tomorrow for an other couple of weeks, this time up into New Mexico and expect to find fewer folks but more critters. (o;

Ok,
Did you get any info like plates, truck, person discription etc and notify the local(?) LEOs.
The reason I ask is that years ago while camping, we ran into a couple of strange folks out in the woods. For whatever reason, they were convinced to seek other prey.
Next week on the TV we saw the 2 of them, Leonard Lake and Charles Eng, with 28 sex torture murders under their belt when discovered.

Even if you get the job done properly, like you did, I hope you made the locals aware of what happened.

Last year I did some photography work as a favor to a lawyer friend.

There's a Planned Parenthood clinic in the building where his office is and there have been protesters for years. Most of the protesters aren't a problem, just old people walking in circles praying, although the ones with the big icons look like the Tsar's army marching off to WWI.

Unfortunately, there are a few troublemakers who intentionally use huge pictures of dismembered fetuses to block the view from the building's sunken driveway. They've almost caused several accidents. I once almost got hit coming out of the driveway because someone knowingly blocked my view of the street. A friend of mine who almost got hit asked them what they'd do if they caused an accident and a baby died. They said it would be worth it.

The troublemakers kept getting more and more aggressive, harassing ANY woman entering or leaving the building, which has many businesses in it. One of them took great pleasure in waving pictures of fetuses in the faces of the children of passing motorists and when the drivers complained, videoing their children.

I've got a DSLR, so my friend asked me to take pictures of the 2-3 troublemakers intentionally blocking the driveway.

For several weeks, I took pictures of the ones trying to cause accidents every time they blocked the view from the driveway. One night, one of them walked over to me and aggressively challenged me. I just ignored him. He kept at it and I kept ignoring him, occasionally taking pictures of the others causing a traffic hazard. He finally gave up and walked away.

A few minutes later, a 350lb. Jabba the Hut clone who calls himself the "Conservative Atheist" waddled over and became even more aggressive. For easily five minutes, he loudly and obscenely tried to provoke me. I ignored him too as he tried to provoke a fight while videoing me. I just continued to read Hogg's Gun Digest Book of Machine Guns. Finally he got frustrated and waddled away. I had audio recorded his entire tirade.

Later my friend had a meeting with the protesters. The normal ones agreed to not create a traffic hazard. The freaks refused, and the others "voted them off the island", refusing to allow them to protest with them anymore. Jabba the Hut asked my friend if I was taking pictures for him. My friend replied that I was, and then asked him, "Do you really think it's smart to try to start a fight with a guy wearing an NRA Instructor's ballcap and reading a book on machine guns?" Jabba paled and asked, "Wwwwas he carrying a gggun???" My friend just smiled. I had of course had my Model 36 in a pocket holster in my front pocket all the time.

I never said a word to any of them. If Jabba had come onto the property I would have walked inside. If he'd followed me in and tried to attack me, he'd have had a VERY unpleasant evening.

Situational awareness, attitude, demeanor, and the way you carry yourself can tell a person alot about you without ever talking to him.

Kanewpadle said:

Situational awareness, attitude, demeanor, and the way you carry yourself can tell a person alot about you without ever talking to him.

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+1. You handled it well. I think I would have packed up and left. I wouldn't want them to drink some more liquid courage and come back with rifles . . .

Kanewpadle said:

Situational awareness, attitude, demeanor, and the way you carry yourself can tell a person alot about you without ever talking to him.

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Well said. Your level of vulnerability and your level of confidence can both can be "read" by someone trying to size you up. Having the means to protect yourself literally at your fingertips certainly helps with both.

I like to use verbal challenges very early in encounters where I deem there is a potential for trouble. Depending on how a person does or doesn't respond to my challenge tells me a lot about the potential threat level.

Sounds like you handled yourself well, Frank. I hope you contacted local LE and let them know of your "weird" encounter.

Good call and demeanor on the part of the OP, as mentioned. The social contract doesn't isn't always in force at isolated campgrounds.

About 30 years ago I had 3 guys hooraw my camp one night while up in Northern Canada. While I had a M94 Winchester, I figured that shooting would be a violation of the Good Neighbor Policy and so butt-stroked one. The Mounties eventually showed up and allowed as how the guy deserved his broken jaw.

It's the two-legged predators I'm concerned about, and they do turn up now and then.

Never say never.

In the movie Big Jake, before he enters the camp, Richard Boone says "hello in the camp!". Remember that?

I never enter someone's campsite without making my presence known from a distance.

I too have had questionable people enter my campsite unannouced. But when I camp, I open carry. And there's always a long gun close by. Seems to work.

jabba the hut........... LMFAO!!!

Larry, Thanks for a fine example why you have to carry to protect yourself and your family. It helps to have 5 or 6 friends with you. I now have 15!! M&P .40

cshoff said:

I like to use verbal challenges very early in encounters where I deem there is a potential for trouble. Depending on how a person does or doesn't respond to my challenge tells me a lot about the potential threat level.

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Could you give an example or two? I'm always trying to learn more about how to handle a potentially dangerous situation should one arise, and hadn't heard about this tactic before.



Larry,

I'm glad you and your wife are OK. I'm wondering if open carry would have been helpful in such a situation.

Andy

silvercn said:

jabba the hut........... LMFAO!!!

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He's actually on You-Tube. If I looked like him... and was taking video of people's children, I wouldn't want to be on You-Tube.

Thanks for your responses. I'll try to further answer some posts:

Did I report to authorities?
Nope. I could use the excuse that there's no cell service in the canyon and 25 miles of gravel to the nearest phone but, in reality, all I had to report was my opinion and our feeling about what might have happened. I doubt that Fergus County deputies could do much. Still, you're probably right that I should have tried.

How about packing up and leaving?
Would have been a prudent thing to do. I did consider it briefly but, after my wife calmed down, the danger seemed to have passed. I felt their decision had been made to leave without me openly challenging them. As I stated, I didn't sleep well.

Would open carry have helped?
It sure might have diffused the situation but my limited training/reading about open vs concealed carry has convinced me that I'm generally better off if bad guys don't know I'm armed -- especially if I'm outnumbered.

MajorGeneralMontyM said:

Larry, Thanks for a fine example why you have to carry to protect yourself and your family. It helps to have 5 or 6 friends with you. I now have 15!! M&P .40

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That reminds me of one of my all time favorite movie quotes:

CROOK: [during a diner robbery] What's you doing, you pighead sucka?

HARRY CALLAHAN: Every day for the past ten years, Loretta here's been giving me a large black coffee- except today she gives me a large black coffee and it has sugar in it. Alotta sugar. I just came back to complain.

CROOK: Say what, sucka?

HARRY: Well, we're not just gonna let you walk out of here.

CROOK: Who'se we sucka?

HARRY: [slowly drawing his .44 Magnum] Smith and Wesson... and me.