An example of why I carry

[gaucho1]

I have said this many times. Demeanor counts for everything. I have been in a number of situations like that. If you have a snub in your pocket it gives you the same demeanor without having to flash a gun.
I could give several similar examples as yours but many here would call me a liar, they were so far out.

Mr. feralmerril

A liar you are not.

I think you have real credibility here and most would really
enjoy any experiences you choose to share.

I always read your posts when I see them and find them
interesting and always a good read.

Besides, even if you stretched something for fun, it justs makes for a better story.

 

[mccabescustomleather]

Very good story. I recently read a post on a motorcycle forum where someone asked who carried while they rode. Some anti gun guy(obviously) said that riding was "relaxing" for him and if he feels the need to have to carry a gun then thats not very relaxing. His comment doesn't make sense but thats par for the course. I always feel a little bit more relaxed when I know I'm carrying and it sounds like you were too. My response always is "I have no idea when or why I'm going to need a gun and that is exactly why I always carry"

 

[cmort666]

My response always is "I have no idea when or why I'm going to need a gun and that is exactly why I always carry"

Anybody who can can foretell the future and unfailingly predict when and where he's going to need a gun doesn't need to carry a gun.

He needs to play the horses and the stock market. Inside of two weeks, he's going to be so wealthy he'll be able to buy his own island and a navy to patrol the waters around it to keep out the unwanted.

 

[cshoff]

Could you give an example or two? I'm always trying to learn more about how to handle a potentially dangerous situation should one arise, and hadn't heard about this tactic before....<snip>

Well, as an example, last winter I had a "teenager" (young man) dressed in a heavy, long coat try to approach me from my blind side one night after midnight in a dimply lit, vacant parking lot of a convenience store. He came from the side of the building where he (obviously) didn't think I could see him. I was about 10 or 15 feet from the door when I noticed him approaching, and while he was about 15 or 20 feet away, I bladed my body to him, slipped my strong my hand up under my coat, secured a grip on my gun, and then while making the "stop" gesture with my support hand, I challenged him strongly with, "WHAT DO YOU WANT!". Caught him totally off guard. He stopped right there and asked, "you got a cigarette?". I said, again strongly, "NO. NOW GET AWAY FROM ME AND GET AWAY FROM MY CAR". He turned, walked out of the lot, and headed down the street. I never saw him again.

By challenging him as early as possible in the encounter, I was able to A) throw off his OODA loop, B) allow myself as much time as possible to assess, evaluate, and respond to the situation, and C) allow him an "out" before he went any further. While it's certainly possible he only wanted a cigarette, the "you got a cigarette?" line is one of the oldest tricks in the book for muggers looking for a way to distract you while they go about their business of victimizing you. Either way, I believe he realized at that moment that I wasn't going to an easy target if he had ill intentions. All is well that ends well.

 

[feralmerril]

Ok gaucho1, this one is for you! 1970 I got in a terrible accident with my harley. While I was recouperating with a busted leg and cracked neck I was also fixing my bike. I dreamed up a new style scoot boot and saddlebags all as one unit. Through a mutual friend I had met a rough indivigal who had was fairly well known that made fiberglass parts for different vehicals. I drew up what I wanted and he said leave your harley with me and I will make you one for free so I can make more, I think I can sell your idea. Also my best friend bill that I worked with was in the deal and he had a moto guzzi and he was to get one too. Now bill was my closest buddy and a rough guy that could handle himself pretty good as he also was a ex motor cop and we both shot a lot together etc.
As time dragged on I visited "Max" and my bike at his shop in costa mesa california. The hesshians outlaw motorcycle club headquarters was next door to his shop and he was friends to them.
Every time I visited max they were hanging around. They were real hinckey as part of the gang had just went to jail for attempted murder. They had shot a member that had ratted them out, stuffed him under a manhole and left him for dead, but he survived. These guys were always armed heavey when I seen them. Evidently "Max" had told some whopper lies about bill and I that must had been intreging for his own purposes. Once I was in his shop and I dont remember how he knew or guessed I was packing, but he did. Soon he goaded me into haveing a shooting contest shooting knots out of the ceiling boards against one of those bikers.
Things dragged on and no work was getting done on our bikes. Finaly bill and I drove over to Maxs house and demanded our bikes. Max was cool and said okay, lets go get them. He had a huge old van that he went to trade shows in. We get about a couple blocks from the shops and max reachs overhead, pulls a revolver and said, ya guys are healed, aint cha? Then he tells us he had a fight with his partner, rolled our bikes into the hessians club house next door for safe keeping!!! Then he says I had a falling out with these boys too, as he pulls up to there door!! I am no hero and had I had time to think this over I wouldnt have been there without a swatt team! Well we are there and nothing for it but to bluff it out or whatever! We get out, go inside and pleasantly say we are here for our bikes. This time the group, I dont remember how many, maybe 7 guys and 3 or so young chicks standing around are hostile and very wary. One guy comes down from the loft with a AR-15 and another walks up with a browning Hi-power in his pants. The club president, about 375 #s of muscle is starting to wrap my security chain I had on the harley around his hand glairing at me!
God, I love my best old buddy bill! Today bill is about 79 years old, (ten years older than me.) Bill snatched the browning out of the glaring guys belt as non chilancey as if he was our preacher, and says Hey! Ya got a new purty one here. At the same time I snatched the chain out of the muscle heads hand and said hey, I was looking for that chain, its mine, thank ya! He just stood there stunned as I took it. Let me say here and now, I know they couldnt have been scared of me! I am a christian and God has taken care of me all my life. It seems I have got myself stupidly in many touchy situations through dumb stupidity in my life and God always got me out of them. Maybe not always unhurt, but obvisley alive. To this day I really think those people saw 8 foot tall angels standing behind me and bill! I really do!
Anyway they helped us load up the bikes. One miserbal speciman took me aside and wanted to know if I wanted in on a armored car robbery he was planning! I blew smoke at him and said something like I would have to "think it over".
When we pulled out I told Max, "Max you sob I dont know what you told those guys about us, and I dont want to know, but it must have been pretty damn good!

 

[Kanewpadle]

Well, as an example, last winter I had a "teenager" (young man) dressed in a heavy, long coat try to approach me from my blind side one night after midnight in a dimply lit, vacant parking lot of a convenience store. He came from the side of the building where he (obviously) didn't think I could see him. I was about 10 or 15 feet from the door when I noticed him approaching, and while he was about 15 or 20 feet away, I bladed my body to him, slipped my strong my hand up under my coat, secured a grip on my gun, and then while making the "stop" gesture with my support hand, I challenged him strongly with, "WHAT DO YOU WANT!". Caught him totally off guard. He stopped right there and asked, "you got a cigarette?". I said, again strongly, "NO. NOW GET AWAY FROM ME AND GET AWAY FROM MY CAR". He turned, walked out of the lot, and headed down the street. I never saw him again.

By challenging him as early as possible in the encounter, I was able to A) throw off his OODA loop, B) allow myself as much time as possible to assess, evaluate, and respond to the situation, and C) allow him an "out" before he went any further. While it's certainly possible he only wanted a cigarette, the "you got a cigarette?" line is one of the oldest tricks in the book for muggers looking for a way to distract you while they go about their business of victimizing you. Either way, I believe he realized at that moment that I wasn't going to an easy target if he had ill intentions. All is well that ends well.

Yes, but a verbal challenge can just as easily start a fight rather than prevent one.

I prefer a stern "don't mess with me" look and I don't speak unless spoken too. And my reply is short and too the point.

When those that are too lazy to get a job are in front of the convenience store asking for bus fare, they very rarely ask me.

I like it that way.

 

[cmort666]

I prefer a stern "don't mess with me" look and I don't speak unless spoken too. And my reply is short and too the point.

When those that are too lazy to get a job are in front of the convenience store asking for bus fare, they very rarely ask me.

I like it that way.

1. About five(?) years ago, I was taking Amtrak to Chicago to visit my mother at Christmas. The train is ALWAYS late getting to Cleveland from New York. While everybody's waiting around in the tiny station, a guy around 60-65 shows up. He's obviously not all there and says a lot of weird stuff to the ticket agent. He's got a ticket for Pittsburgh or Philly, which he changes for one to Elkhart.

Immediately, the guy becomes a problem. He starts hassling mostly women, being loud and saying inappropriate things. After bothering a bunch of women, he homes in on a young Amish couple and really goes to work. Obviously embarrassed, they have no idea what to do. I say to the guy in German that the guy is nuts and not to talk to him. Eventually, after bothering somebody else, he turns to me and starts to open his mouth. I give him my best Josey Wales, "Dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy" stare. He turns pale(r), pivots on his heel and heads in the opposite direction.

2. A couple of years ago, I was in the same station at the same time of the year. A guy comes in and starts bothering women with a sob story about him and his kids living in his car and begging for money. He scares a few women who give him money, then walks up to where I'm sitting. I'm wearing my NRA instructor's ballcap and reading Ayoob's "Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry". He starts to open his mouth and I give him the Josey Wales look and quietly say, "I've got NOTHING for you." He gets the message and moves onto greener... and less potentially dangerous, pastures. A few minutes later, an Amtrak cop shows up and notes that he's seen him there before, which the guy denies a few times before admitting it. The cop then says, "Yeah, I threw you out of here a few nights ago... and I'm getting ready to again, right now."

Both ways usually work. Fortunately, I'm only in the Amtrak station once a year and am almost always armed in case I meet somebody who doesn't understand verbal OR nonverbal communication.

 

[cshoff]

Yes, but a verbal challenge can just as easily start a fight rather than prevent one.

I prefer a stern "don't mess with me" look and I don't speak unless spoken too. And my reply is short and too the point.

When those that are too lazy to get a job are in front of the convenience store asking for bus fare, they very rarely ask me.

I like it that way.

Different situations call for different tactics, to be sure. A person at least my size or better, wearing a heavy coat that hides who-knows-what, approaching from my blind side in a dimly lit, vacant parking lot in the middle of the night is going to get more than a "stern" look from me. That person needs to know RIGHT NOW that I am aware of his presence and that I mean business. On the other hand, some panhandler that is bugging every passerby for a dime or a quarter doesn't warrant a verbal response at all. Every situation has to be evaluated based on it's own unique circumstances and I am not advocating going around "challenging" everyone who comes within 10 feet of you.

A verbal challenge, IMO, is something used when you go from a state of "aware" to a state of "alert" (or from condition "yellow" to condition "orange") due to the actions of someone you perceive may pose a real threat to you, and when you are in a somewhat compromised position and don't have an immediate means of retreat. Waiting to speak until spoken to, in a situation such as this, might mean the guy is on top of you before you ever say a word. The idea behind a verbal challenge is to STOP the potential threat from advancing any closer to you; something that a "stern" look is not very likely to do, especially under the circumstances I described in my reply above. You are issuing a command for him to STOP, and if he doesn't, it is much easier to make the determination that the person is no longer a potential threat, but an ACTUAL threat. I can assure you that at the time I challenged that guy, I had no concerns for whether or not that kid thought I was trying to start a fight with him. To the contrary, I wanted him to know without uncertainty, that I was fully prepared to fight and to prevail if he attempted to victimize me in any way.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Different situations call for different tactics, to be sure. A person at least my size or better, wearing a heavy coat that hides who-knows-what, approaching from my blind side in a dimly lit, vacant parking lot in the middle of the night is going to get more than a "stern" look from me. That person needs to know RIGHT NOW that I am aware of his presence and that I mean business. On the other hand, some panhandler that is bugging every passerby for a dime or a quarter doesn't warrant a verbal response at all. Every situation has to be evaluated based on it's own unique circumstances and I am not advocating going around "challenging" everyone who comes within 10 feet of you.

A verbal challenge, IMO, is something used when you go from a state of "aware" to a state of "alert" (or from condition "yellow" to condition "orange") due to the actions of someone you perceive may pose a real threat to you, and when you are in a somewhat compromised position and don't have an immediate means of retreat. Waiting to speak until spoken to, in a situation such as this, might mean the guy is on top of you before you ever say a word. The idea behind a verbal challenge is to STOP the potential threat from advancing any closer to you; something that a "stern" look is not very likely to do, especially under the circumstances I described in my reply above. You are issuing a command for him to STOP, and if he doesn't, it is much easier to make the determination that the person is no longer a potential threat, but an ACTUAL threat. I can assure you that at the time I challenged that guy, I had no concerns for whether or not that kid thought I was trying to start a fight with him. To the contrary, I wanted him to know without uncertainty, that I was fully prepared to fight and to prevail if he attempted to victimize me in any way.

Maybe. Maybe not.

There's a fine line there.

You and I have a different approach.

First of all, I don't let unknown persons to get to close to me without eye to eye contact. The eyes say a lot.

I am very good a reading the eyes and body language. If I have any doubt as to the persons intentions, I keep my eye on them, eye to eye, sternly. At the same time I move away slightly. If they move to follow, then I will speak. But I don't raise my voice. I simply ask if I can help them and at the same time ready myself.

Either method could invite or prevent trouble. But it's better than the alternative.

 

[cshoff]

Maybe. Maybe not.

There's a fine line there.

You and I have a different approach.

First of all, I don't let unknown persons to get to close to me without eye to eye contact. The eyes say a lot.

I find that hard to believe. If you are in any kind of crowded environment, even a busy check out lane at a grocery store, it's nearly impossible to make eye contact with everyone who is well inside your reactionary gap distance. Face it, at certain times and in certain circumstances, even the most aware individual can be vulnerable. Furthermore, the eyes only say a lot when they can be seen; not something easily done in a dark parking lot in the middle of the night.

I am very good a reading the eyes and body language. If I have any doubt as to the persons intentions, I keep my eye on them, eye to eye, sternly. At the same time I move away slightly. If they move to follow, then I will speak. But I don't raise my voice. I simply ask if I can help them and at the same time ready myself.

I don't raise my voice either, but neither am I tepid. I intend to sound like I am in control, NOT like I am there to answer their questions or be of assistance to them. Yes, if, when you attempt to put more space between you and the possible threat, they attempt to close that space, regardless of the tactic(s) you are using to confront them, you had better be ready because something could be going down at any moment.

I confronted two guys in front of a gas station a few months back with the same tactic you describe above. As I was checking out, they were standing outside the front of the store looking through the plate glass window, apparently "sizing me up". One guy pointing at me, not looking to happy, and obviously having a "heated" discussion with the other guy. I don't know if they mistook me for someone else, or if perhaps they had intentions of trying to steel some tools out of my service truck, or what, but I recognized them as a potential threat right away. When I finished checking out, they were standing about 15 feet off to the side of the door to the station (broad daylight), and my truck was directly in front of me, straight out the door about 40 feet, about 90 degrees to their position. I cautiously exited the building, ready to take action if necessary, while making strong eye contact with them both, never saying a word. I took a few slow steps towards my truck (and towards the cover I had already scouted out), and after a couple of seconds, they turned around, got in their car, and drove off down the road. I got in my truck, kept an eye in my rear view mirror, and never saw them again as I drove home. They obviously got some kind of message from my body language; either I wasn't who they thought I was, or they realized I wasn't going to play any games.

As I said before, different situations call for different tactics. Knowing when and how to apply those different tactics is the "hard" part.

Either method could invite or prevent trouble. But it's better than the alternative.

No doubt about that.

 

[Srigs]

Great job on handling it!

Pocket carry is a great way to have your hand on a gun without anyone knowing. In my opinion I am much more likely to use a pocket gun than my primary... why? Your hand on a gun is always much faster on the draw than on that requires you to move a cover garment and draw.

 

[cmort666]

Great job on handling it!

Pocket carry is a great way to have your hand on a gun without anyone knowing. In my opinion I am much more likely to use a pocket gun than my primary... why? Your hand on a gun is always much faster on the draw than on that requires you to move a cover garment and draw.

Massad Ayoob has made that point on a number of occasions.

 

[Strato]

Maybe. Maybe not.

There's a fine line there.

You and I have a different approach.

First of all, I don't let unknown persons to get to close to me without eye to eye contact. The eyes say a lot.

I am very good a reading the eyes and body language. If I have any doubt as to the persons intentions, I keep my eye on them, eye to eye, sternly. At the same time I move away slightly. If they move to follow, then I will speak. But I don't raise my voice. I simply ask if I can help them and at the same time ready myself.

Either method could invite or prevent trouble. But it's better than the alternative.

The eyes can lie. Anyone who's played sports knows that only too well. When you're on defense the instant you make eye contact with your opponant you get smoked. It's more important to know what the hands are doing and I'd rather be telling the DA the perp didn't respond to verbal commands than to say "My stern look didn't stop him so I had to use my gun."