Dear Smith and Wesson Forum would a Smith and Wesson .500 magnum revolver with a 4 inch barrel be a good ccw carry gun or would it be to heavy? any and all help in answering this would be greatly appreciated sincerely and respectfully
mg357 a proud member of the Smith and Wesson Forum

One more thing I forgot to foolishly mention when I originally posted this thread was this the kind of concealed carry I am talking about is against animals you know bears bobcats you know dangerous four legged threats Not I repeat Not people.

Only if you're a forensic anthropologist and your name is "Temperance Brennan"...

To heavy, risk of over penetration, ability of accurate follow-up shots.

You are only allowed one of thee questions per year.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

one word...overkill!

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"I'm your huckleberry."

Load it with .50 specials.
I would choose the shorter barreled one tho.
I have honestly considered this, then again... I have been known to carry a couple of .44 mag snubbies.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

It would be O K if you didn't use +P

Just how tough of an adversary do you plan on meeting? The cops face the worst of the worst, and a .40 S&W seems to get the job done for them. The military faces unfriendly people and used a .45 acp on them for years until adopting the 9mm.

So unless Sasquatch is after you, I'd go with something else. Anything else.

And you used your quota till 2020 already...

Oh, my: may I suggest you try another gun...or not, your choice.

BIGGER IS BETTER! Keep the questions coming.

Well sure, but you better not miss! Would you feel OK if you were in a crowded bank or store and someone pulled a gun out, and you had to use that .500 with lots of people around? If you hit an innocent person with a .500 round, when a .38 or 9mm would have done the job and not killed an innocent person, may God be with you, because no one else will!

I think some guys who want to carry ridulously powerful weapons for CCW are making up for latent feelings of inadequacy or being small in the pants........

My question is what the heck is so wrong with .38 Special +P's for CC with a revolver?!?! What kind of people do you expect to face, 500 lb. 8' tall giants? At least if you use a .38 or even .357 to defend yourself it is easier to justify.

I would not want to be the guy in court in a wrongful death civil suit trying to justify why I carried a handgun with the power to stop a Grizzly bear and used it on a human being to defend myself and shot through a grocery store 500 yards away, putting a softball sized hole in an innocent bystander who was picking up milk and eggs on the way home from work.........

The key would be a quality gun belt.

If you're big enuff and ornery enuff to carry a 50 CCW, you probably don't need a gun.

You could go bear huntin' with a switch!!!

And if you come up against a guy with a j-frame he will most likely put 5 in you before you can get that thing steadied.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

And incidentally, illegal in OK for concealed carry (.45 max).

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Science plus Art

Nah... most of those J frames are in a pocket... and if its a scadium .357 the owner generally looses interest in firing it after 1 round anyway.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

I guess if a guy was 6' 12" tall and weighed about 400 LB that'd be a good carry piece against a similar sized guy who was max'ed out on PCP! However, I'm 5' 7" and weight 180 LB, my snubbie Model 66 is about all I want to lug around!

To be honest, I think anyone would be crazy not to take a long look at the current M&P line of guns. The Glock 19 has long been held in the highest regard by Operators in military, law enforcement, and private security companies.

S&W took the Glock handgun and improved it further with the M&P line. The fact that the fullsize 9mm/.40 models are almost identical in size to the G19 is no coincidence IMO. It is an incredibly concealable gun, has 16+1 capacity, recoil is virtually non existent for follow up shots, and given the large choice of lethal 9mm defense rounds... the M&P9 is really an ideal carry gun. If deeper concealment or a backup gun is desired, the M&P9c fits the role perfect. Or go .40 if thats your cup of tea.

With the option of a thumb safety and the new APEX DCAEK kit to improve the trigger pull, there is really nothing left to not like about the gun. I've had owners of custom 1911s shoot them and they end up buying one.

Just keep in mind, I love a stainless 6 shot S&W, but for CCW we have a responsibility to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and any innocent bystanders. A gun should be chosen as the best possible combat gun when picking a CCW gun. Then get the beauties and classics and fun big bores for plinking!

Just my $0.02.

Steve

I am not really disagreeing with you per se, but shot placement is key. Big bullets come at the expense of capacity, which is equally as important as stopping power and shot placement.

The best advice I can give to a new CCW is buy a combat grade 9mm (Glock, M&P, HK, Steyr, etc.) and SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT! buy ammo buy the 1k round box, run some training classes, and get to know your gun the best you can. Big bullets don't help when you can't control them or they run out.

Remember, at the end of the day, handgun bullets poke holes in people, but rifles blow things up. There's no magic round that will stop a person 100% of the time in one shot in handgun calibers, so training and shot placement can be what seperates surviving and going TU.

I agree with the shot placement statement but not with the idea that capacity is equally important as shot placement and stopping power.

What's the average gunfight, one or two rounds? Three? It sure isn't 10, 15, or 20. I would like to hear from the guy who needed his 17th shot after placing the first 16 anywhere close to where he wanted.

Wow, a j frame is about all I can stand as far as weight. Be careful you are not arrested for sagging, and if you carry it four o'clock be aware of any plumbers crack that might be showing.

I see one of those .50 revolvers in nearly every gun shop. I always laugh at how ridiculous they are for any practical use. Probably a lot of fun at the range, but that's about it. I always figured the people that buy them do so as a curiousity or just for their collection. I'd imagine you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a person actually carrying one as their CCW except, perhaps, out in bear country where it might actually have some use.

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"... shall not be infringed."

I think you can buy a used howitzer on E Bay for a lot less.

Its just more of 2 schools of thought. I would STRONGLY SUGGEST if any of you unfortunately must use your firearm, that you shoot a liberal amount of shots. At the end of the day, handgun rounds really aren't man stoppers (there are some that work better than others, yes, but are less practical).

I am a HUGE fan of the 1911 platform. But I also see the disadvantage of the capacity limit. You gain bigger holes, but limit yourself to 8 or 9 rounds. For a lone mugger 3 feet away in a parking lot, this may be ample. If someone kicks in your door in the middle of the night and you grab your gun and take a defensive position, you're going to wish that magazine held at least 10 more.

Even top shots will be better off with 4-5 rounds per threat, so if a small group of BGs attack, those get ate up quick. A spare mag (essential IMO) helps, but remember the huge adrenaline rush may compramise the reload, especially without training. Which leads to the biggest advantage for CCWs buying 9mm, price / availibility of ammo. Training is far more important than any weapon / caliber.

If you are a confident shooter who has trained and practiced emergency drills, then by all means go .45acp. I never hesitate to carry .45 but I don't think its an ideal round for people new to shooting/CCW. I also think 99% of new shooters/CCW permit holders would be best served by a high capacity Double action only style 9mm service pistol.

But again, this is just my $0.02 and what I've picked up overtime. Get what you are most comfortable with and shoot the living hell out of it! Know your weapon system, in and out, pros and cons...

YMMV

Steve
[email protected]

Is this a real question? If so, I feel stupid carrying a J-frame!

I'm waiting for S&W to come out with a Scandium/Ti version of the 500!

Seriously, I recall someone writing, and I think it was on here, about using a 4" 500 for CCW. I carry mine, concealed or open, when I'm in the mountains picking huckleberries or hiking, being that I live in griz country. Not around town though......the thing is pretty hefty and you start listing to the side after a long day of packing it.

I've heard all of this before.

I still want to hear from the man who needed 17 shots in a gunfight.

Then, I'd also like to hear from those who had six in their gun and had ammo left over when it was finished.

What the heck does that mean?

I was taught to deliver the minimum amount of force needed to stop a threat. If one shot puts him on the ground and unwilling to continue the attack, then that's what he gets....if he retreats at the very sight of my weapon, then that's what he gets....if I fire all 5/6 rounds and then have to beat him into unconsciousness with the butt end of my gun, that's what he gets....I don't shoot a whole bunch of rounds and then open my eyes and look to see what happened...and, I sure wouldn't tell anybody else to that either.

Gosh...I sure hope that the OP was kidding...you were kidding right?

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On the Oak Savannah

While I did not need 17, I did need 12 in a gunfight in '74 (retired LEO). I was carrying my dept. issue Colt DS when I got into a fight with three armed robbers. I emptied my Colt once, reloaded, and emptied it again before the bad guy stopped fighting. If I'd had a Howitzer I would have used that too.

This might be hi-jacking the intent of this thread, but I think it deserves an answer. I was a civilian LEO before I went into the military and was trained that I was responsible for every bullet that left my gun. Luckily, in my career as a LEO, I never had to shoot, although I had it in my hand and was prepared to do so on a number of occassions.
When I went into the military, I was always the guy that had left over rounds at the end of an exercise or mission, because I had been trained (very well I might add) to always identify my target before engaging, no "spray and pray."
As as staff/instructor navigator on B-52s, I always taught crews that they had to positively identify the target before they could drop; close enough didn't count.
Based on my experiences, I disagree strongly with the above post. Engage the target, evaluate the reaction, and either cease, or engage again. Shooting extra rounds opens up a world of explaining where you would never want to be. It could be twisted to make it look like you enjoy killing.
If all of this is an academic discussion for a zombie novel, no harm-no foul. But it's not that way in the real world.

Forgot to add that the .38 stopped the fight then, and I carry a J frame now with confidence. I'd hate to see you carry all that weight and risk overpenetration should you ever need to deploy your .500 - it could be difficult to justify in court, but I'm no lawyer.

Just guessing here, but I believe what PersonalSecurity was alluding to is to be prepared to fire as many shots as it takes, not to arbitrarily empty your 16 round magazine "towards" the bad guy and then look for bits and pieces of him later. In some cases, there could certainly be a need for more than 5 or 6 rounds, especially in a situation where there are multiple attackers involved.

As to the OP and the .500 S&W Magnum, I've got to ask, have you ever shot one before? If you have, then you'd know that it is probably NOT the kind of handgun that would be ideal for use during a dynamic critical incident.

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NRA Pistol,PPITH,PPOTH&TASER

For those of you who haven't run across the OP before, it seems that most of his questions are geared towards outfitting characters in his novels.
They don't always seem to reflect a quest for real everyday info.

Not to disparage him, it just would be nice if he identified the actual reason for the question.
If I'm wrong, I'd appologize.

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Pete.

I recently took a long look at a .500 S&W with a 4" barrel and decided that this revolver has no practical application. The cartridge really belongs in a lever action rifle and NOT a revolver. If you are serious about carrying a .50 for personal defense (and I would not belittle anybody who is serious about it), better alternatives would be the .50 GI in an auto or the .50 AE or even .500 Linebaugh/.50 Special in a revolver. The revolver cartridges are custom propositions but can be had in custom Redhawks with 4" or even 3" barrels. The .50 GI from Guncrafter seems like a very good idea, and is most cost effective when used on the Glock platform.

Dave Sinko

Excellent analysis....

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

That makes better sense....maybe the question would be better positioned in the lounge?

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On the Oak Savannah

I think it would be better positioned over at GlockTalk

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Forum consigliere

i think it would be fine, i carry a cut down ruger #1 in 458 winchester with nite sights myself

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Another woods carry weapon for backup against large Black Bears or ole Grizz if in that neighborhood.

But these guns tend to be heavy and will drag your pants down to your knees after walking up and down the Mts for hours. In AK I might carry one, otherwise I will pass and elect something lighter for the lower 48.

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NRA Benefactor Member

Strange how the crowd here has changed over the years. Oh well.

A number of people here have toted X Frame revolvers, generally the .500s with reduced loads.

I don't have one myself, I'm told that with a reduced load, recoil is no worse than a decently powered .44 Mag round out of a 4" Model 629/29. I've carried one of those. Carried a Model 58 for a time too. Lots of guys on here have carried full size steel 1911s, N frames, etc.

The general reason behind carrying a relatively large and powerful revolver is when someone is worried about animals as well as people.

Someone will google the question and I don't see why it doesn't deserve a real answer, regardless of the OP's intent.

The first rational and well considered answer I've seen on this thread..... Great post, Gator Farmer!

I've gotta ask how many of these opinionated posters have owned a 500 or have even shot one? If many of you actually considered the minimal weight difference in a 4" N frame and a 4" X frame it might just enlighten you. Anyone who has shot a "heavy" 500 realizes how beautifully controllable it can be, and with light to moderate loads, how unmatched it could be as a very potent self defense weapon and caliber.

The idea everyone would use only hot factory ammo in a 500 negates the realization most would use lighter loaded ammo in the 900 to 1100 fps range, just like most users of other magnum calibers do.

I remember much the same arguments directed at 41 and 44 Mags when they were first developed. Those calibers have certainly proved their usefulness and worth many times over through the years in spite of the unfounded criticisms.

Yea, they're big.... too big for daily carry for many people. But if I had a good idea I was headed into a firefight give me a 500 even with their limited shot capacity. I'd take my chances on making one of the five count even if I had to shoot through brick walls, automobiles, or use it to disable engine blocks....

I own and shoot many of the pistol mentioned on this thread. I carried a 6" 57 as a duty gun for many years. I've hunted big game very successfully for over 30 years (large bull elk and bear) with 41 and 44 N frames. I'm now using a 6.5" 500. I would invite everyone to research the development of the 1911 and why it was created before making a judgment about "adequate man-stoppers" or "too much" stopping power.... Any LEO who has actually faced a PCP hyped adversary will understand what I mean...

JMHO.....

That does it; I'm sold now! A .500 it shall be; the only "rational" choice for SD.

That is, until they come out with a .600 or a .700 or a 25mm and somebody makes the same argument.

No one said that it was the only rational choice. But it can be a perfectly valid one, same as a great many others. Depends on the person.

Most people carry rifles if possible if they go in harm's way. When that isn't possible, they compromise and pick one sort or another of handgun.

And for reference, see the "howdah".

I'm glad you've finally seen the light......

The S&W 500 can easily be carried as a CCW, although there are some drawbacks (as with any other weapon choice). In my experience, the only reasonable way to carry one (especially for an extended period) is in a properly fitted shoulder holster, as it greatly reduces the effect of the weapon's weight, and does not result in pulling your pants down (yes, it is a heavy gun). I carried a 6.5" Model 29 in a Bianchi X-15 shoulder holster (concealed) for many years, and was never "made." Shortly after I purchased my 8 3/8" barreled 500, I noticed that it actually had better concealment potential than did my old 29, as the grips have a lot less bulk. In fact, I did a mock-up shoulder holster for it, and that massive gun effectively disappears under a light jacket, or even beneath a shirt. One of these days, I'll probably get around to making that shoulder holster, as it would be a much better method of carry than the belt holster, whether it be concealed or out in the woods. A couple of months ago, the guys at my favorited gun shop talked me into buying a 4" 500 in addition, that gun would conceal just as well, again, in a shoulder holster. IWB or other belt carry would just not be practical, IMHO. Although the gun could be concealed quite well, if using the right equipment, there are other considerations which may limit its utility as a CCW. First, there is the potential problem of appearing to be a "mad dog killer" in court if you actually need to use it. There was a case here in Arizona a couple of years ago which culminated in a man being found guilty of a crime, rather than a justified shooting (which it was) because he was portrayed in court by an anti-gun DA in such a way because he was carrying a semi-auto in that horrible, greatly over-powered 10mm cartridge - the horror of it all! Frankly, although I believe in carrying the biggest caliber you can use effectively for defensive purposes, the .500 Mag may result in an invitation to an anti-gun DA to go after you on a similar basis. Seccond, there is also a high risk of over-penetration and the possibility of causing significant down-range damage to property or persons - a 440 grain bullet traveling at 1500-1600 fps is not going to be stopped by almost any human body, and will exit the other side at a pretty high rate of speed, ready to do more damage. Same thing for a 325 grain JSP which left the muzzle at 1877 fps. third item is controllability - although I have never been recoil sensitive, these things definitely let you know you fired them! The 4" has noticeably more recoil than the 8 3/8" version, as well. The potential for rapid, well-aimed follow up shots, or the ability to rapidly engage additional targets, is not as good as guns of most smaller calibers. Another consideration is the 5 shot cylinder of the 500. While this is not, necessarily, a huge disadvantage, reloads are not very fast, and, to my knowledge, there is only one firm which makes speed loaders for them (custom machined of steel or aluminum, and rather expensive). Concealing a speed loader for a 500 may also prove to be another challenge. While I often carry one of my 500's when out in the wild (which can be only a few hundred yards from my house), especially since we have a pretty healthy bear population up here in the White Mountains, and a lot of bears that don't fear humans, I generally don't consider either of the 500s very practical for CCW as a defensive weapon in most "civilized" scenarios, for the foregoing reasons. Oh yeah, one other thing - although I mocked up a shoulder rig (vertical) for the 500, if i decide to make one, I have been considering setting it up with an additional off-side holster which could carry my Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel (have to install the pistol grip instead of the "standard" wood buttstock I normally have on it). Now that would be a lot of firepower for a CCW rig!

This is a great response and filled with some great information and experience. I will make a few points though.

There's no inbetween in the event we unfortunately have to use our firearms to protect ourselves. You either have the right to kill the attacker or you don't.

When I say "liberal" with shots on attacker, I don't mean stand over the body and empty the magazine like in a ****** revenge movie. Since you were an officer and in the military, I'm sure you have seen this, but the human body is not as fragile as one would think. Couple this with the fact that almost all handgun rounds are underpowered when facing the human body, the "one shot, one kill" is really nothing more than a myth without nothing short of perfect shot placement.

Consider that we have no right to engage unless we expect immediate bodily harm. This translates often to "the attacker has a gun". I don't find it wise to shoot an attacker with a gun once and roll the dice that the threat is neutralized. Also look at instances in which the police unfortunately have to engage a suspect with gunfire. It is not uncommon for the officers to expend their full magazines and only result in a hit or two. Adrenaline plays a huge part in this.

I agree that you should engage the target, cease, and engage again if needed. If we were talking rifles, one shot may be plenty for engagement. If we were talking over a distance, it may apply also. If someone busts into your house with a Glock in their hand, I would stronlgy recommend firing a controlled group of 2-4 shots at center mass. You will find most self defense trainers, law enforcement, and military teach this too when talking about sidearms.

As far as caliber, I still think it is much less important than shot placement. Using the example of said Bad Guy with Glock, a .500SW isn't going to necesarily stop him if you hit, say, his support arm. It will do a lot of damage, but the Bad Guy could still fire upon you. Training and shot placement are the two most important things. As soon as more than one threat engages you, the value of capacity becomes apparent. I would much rather face Joe Schmoe Thug who has a .45acp than Larry Vickers with a .22lr. There is a reason our police chose to trade in their wheelguns for autoloaders. Are revolvers inadequate for self defense? Not at all. I carry a revolver from time to time and feel plenty comfortable with it. I just feel for self defense purposes, especially for untrained individuals, a high capacity autoloader is invaluable.

Nobody has to agree with me, but I hope you keep my training experiences in your mind, get some quality training, and decide ahead of time what you will do in the event the worst day of your life ever occurs. If you and the Bad Guy can walk away alive, that is ideal. I believe its better to put my own safety first and then worry about the criminal.

Safearm made on the most important statements here, and one that I forgot to mention. IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET FIRST!!!

Again, this is my $0.02. I strongly suggest getting your own training to better respond in the terrible circumstance you have to exercise the right to defend yourself.

Steve
Personal Security SystemsSupport our Troops, LEOs, and Responsible Gun Owners!

PersonalSecurity: You have the "right to kill the attacker" in Michigan?

Though not conversant with Michigan state law I doubt that is expressed as part of applicable law(s.)

If I may, I suggest you use the words "right to stop the attacker."

Feel free to disregard this, if you choose.

Be safe.

Update:

I just checked the Michigan statute that the poster was apparently referencing.

It does state that a person has the "right to use deadly force." That is subject to certain conditions and contains limitations, of course. (It is the Castle Doctrine, basically.)

However, "kill the attacker" is not the same as "use deadly force" in my humble opinion. In fact, I suspect one would be in serious difficulty in Michigan...as with most any jurisdiction...if an attacker fled after being the object of deadly force and the "good guy" chopped off his head with an axe after catching him. Yes, the use of the axe is a extreme; I submit you would be in trouble with the law if you shot him then.

Be safe.

My mod 360 is much more difficult to control than my 500 mag with full loads. I have been considering replacing the 357 with the 500 for daily carry but I'm having a hard time finding a good ankle holster for it!