Are blackjacks, saps, billy clubs, paddy wackers, and other various lead filled weapons legal to own / carry? I've been told that they are regarded as a firearm when it comes to carrying. I live in WV and haven't seen anything concerning thier legality when I looked it up. I'm not looking to carry one, but if I run across one in a trade, I'd like to make sure it's legal to own.

JP

I know they are not legal in NY. That doesn't mean that people don't have them. Check online stores, and they may say "Not legal to ship to..." or "Check local restrictions". I can't speak specificly for WV.

You may have to look in the definition section of your legal code. Check "weapons" or "deadly weapons".

Weapons prohibitions frequently start out with 19th century boiler plate on "Knives, dirks, daggers, brass knuckles, etc." and expand into "spring knives" and other exotic items of more recent development. Various clubbing tools might not be named, but included by case law. You could contact someone at the office of whatever title the County Prosecutor holds and ask them.

Don't think they are legal here.

If you carry a baseball bat in your car here you better have a baseball glove and ball and be ready to play cause their gonna getcha if'n you don't.


_____
James

Purely a state and local matter.

In Chicago, even cops are prohibited from carrying them. The cop who did Federal time for sapping the elderly stabbing victim handcuffed to a wheelchair who spit on him was also dinged by the department for carrying an unauthorized weapon.

Things like blackjacks, asps, etc., are subject to such a plethora of conflicting laws, even in the same state, that you have to know the law WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, not just state law.

It's mostly a moot point in Ohio. We don't have a "concealed weapons permit". We have a "concealed handgun license" (CHL), and a HANDGUN is ALL it authorizes you to carry. Anything else is subject to local and state law. There's no preemption in Ohio for these items like there is for gun laws.

I'm not as much wondering about carring them, but wondering if any states prohibit ownership.

JP

I have my dad's old sap from his Detective days...it looks a lot like the one on the left only the hitting part is smooth leather...we can carry a sap in the LASD, but only the 45 Gonzalez is authorized...which is odd since it is three times the size of my dads and can do a lot of damge...as a reserve, I'm allowed to carry a sap but only on duty...not sure about full timers...




It's called the 415 Gonzalez because a guy named Gonzalez makes them and 415 is radio code for a fight...it weights about 2 pounds.

__________________
Thirty characters. Exactly...

My point is that even if your STATE doesn't ban them, and you don't CARRY one, you could still be committing a crime by possessing one in your home if your city or county bans them. And that's entirely possible.

Wow that 415 is a monster. Even a small one is very lethal, but that beast is a leg breaker for sure.

JP

I can tell you from experience that they aren't worth a flip. When I was a young LEO 30 million years ago, I bought a 10 inch texan lead filled sap to carry in my back pocket on duty. One night my partner and I got into a brawl at a bar and I chased a dirtbag outside that had popped me upside the head as we was cuffing his friend. He was backing away from me when he backed into a tree. He turned his head to see what he backed into and I hit him upside the head with the sap twice. He turned and just looked at me and the fight was on. During the rolling around on the ground fight, he got the sap away from me and took a swing. I caught it with my left hand breaking a finger. I was in the process of unsnapping my service weapon when my partner saw me from across the field and fired a shot in the air. The shot scared the guy and he ran off with my sap. I never bothered to chase him. Never bought or carried another sap. Bought a shock baton after that.

yeah I think you'd be better off going with a flashlight that was designed to take that kind of beating as this is strictly ment as something that was ment to given people a beating in the first place and has no other purpose but that and they'd hang you for it.

In most areas saps, black jacks. and the like are not legal to carry concealed or not. As for mere ownership that depends on your local laws. If you want one just to have one in a collection how is any L.E.O.going to find out you have it.

Properly used a sap or preferably a black jack should be a fight stopper every time. Just remember if you take a swat at someone with one you are using a dangerous and deadly weapon, so make sue you are justified in doing so. I was trained, years ago, you don't hit a suspect anywhere above the elbow, unless your life is in danger NOW.

I enjoyed the story about the blackjack but have to disagree, with respect. I carried one for years until my agency banned them and it saved my bacon on more than one occassion. It is no longer carried (I'm too old to fight anyone now) but is kept w/my other momentos from my LEO days.

IL LEOs can legally carry saps, blackjacks, etc. 24-2(d) is the statute grants the exception to the UUW statute for LEOs.
"(d) Subsection 24-1(a)(1) does not apply to the purchase, possession or carrying of a black-jack or slung-shot by a peace officer."
You are confusing dept policy with law. 2 completely different issues. While IL law may grant the carrying by LEOs dept policy can prohibit it. However, violating dept policy is not a criminal offense. A person cannot be sent to jail for violating dept policy. They could be disciplined up to termination but it's not a criminal matter. The example you gave has nothing to do with either the statute or violating dept policy but the use of excessive force. A completely different matter entirely and unrelated to the weapon. Violating dept policy is not a federal crime either. What you are describing is a 1983 Civil Rights violation which is a federal crime. The type of weapon used is irrelevant. It's the violation of civil rights by use of excessive force that causes 1983 actions. That could be by hands or other personal object and doesn't matter the type of weapon used.

__________________
183rd FBINA

Just skimmed through the state code and it looks to me like the only issue would be with carrying one. Having a collection in your home shouldn't be an issue.


Here's a link to Chapter 61, Article 7 so you can read it for yourself.

West Virginia Code

Thanks JW.

JP

In my state, they are legal to own, but not carried concealed. It is state by state, and even jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

I personally liked mine, when we were allowed to carry them. I really liked the sap gloves (can't carry them anymore either - Sigh).

Funny though, I'm alowed to carry a mini Monadnock Defender since it is considered an expandable batton; it fits a "sap pocket" pretty well and can be used like a sap.

Note that I specifically stated that he was "dinged by the DEPARTMENT". The punishment was of an administrative nature, separate from his Federal prosecution for civil rights violations.

I started as a cop in 1981. At that time lot of the older guys around here still carried saps or blackjacks in the sap pocket of their uniform pants and did so until about '84 or '85 when such weapons were specifically prohibited by policy. Most of the guys used them as a backup impact weapon, in case they bailed out of the car in a hurry and forgot their straight baton.

I bought a Bucheimer "Convoy" blackjack and another model with a lighter weight. One of my older mentors who worked for the Sheriff's Department told me to use the lighter one. I carried it as a backup until policy changed. (This same guy had been in a battle with a drunk sometime in the late 70s and ended up hitting the guy along side the head with the edge of a flat sap (by accident) and just about tore the suspect's ear off. No lasting repercussions from that, but he immediately switched to carrying a lighter weight round blackjack with the spring as a result. I saw him break a guy's collar bone with it in the parking lot of a road house one night when we went to a fight at bar time. That fella’ quit fighting immediately . . . )

I still think a lighter weight blackjack may have utility in some applications.

I traded another old timer a black GI wool sweater for his sap gloves. Only used them once, breaking up a fight in a parking lot outside a bar. A strong punch to the sternum stopped a guy who wanted to fight me dead in his tracks. (Which was good, because I'm a big boy and he was about the same size and a lot more muscular (and certainly meaner) and I think I would've been in trouble if he'd have gotten his hands on me or landed a few punches)

I guess I might need to add to my story that the bar we was in was know for its drugs back in the 70's and the guy was probably loaded with Qualudes. I did carry a 5 cell Kel-light that worked pretty good on ones head when needed but once tied into a guy selling Qualudes out of his vehicle on the side of the road. When the fight started I had him in a headlock with me beating him in the head with the light with no effect. There was so much blood on the ground that one would have through there was a hog being killed. A couple of airmen from Ft Rucker came and helped me hold him down to get the cuffs on him. I still have his mugshot in my scrapbook. He looked a conehead with bandages from the ears up.

Hi, Sipowicz:
The Blackjack on the right is a "Convoy". Yes it is "Effective".
Brings back memories!
Jimmy

I did note what you said. You somehow tried to link dept policy as if that had any relationship to the CR porosecution. Federal prosecution has nothing to do with dept policy. Completely separate issues.
If a LEO is convicted of 1983 action then getting "dinged" by a dept for violating policy is the least of his problems. If he did federal time then violating policy is not even on the scope because he wouldn't be a LEO. What did CPD do? Did they give him a 30 day suspension while he was serving his 3 yrs in fed pen?

__________________
183rd FBINA

The Barnes and Noble book weights are a thinly disguised leather sap of an older style. Legal in NY but don't try to take it on an airplane. A librarian got taken into custody for carrying on an airline. I don't know the final resolution of that case.

My sister bought me one--she was completely naive and thought it was a good book weight.

See: BARNES & NOBLE | Black Leather Book Weight by Barnes & Noble

Nice looking saps. Always wanted one.
I'm surprised LASD allows to possess, as per 12029 pc they are illegal to possess. No reference to LE exemption.

California Penal Code Section 12029 - California Attorney Resources - California Laws

Ok, I'm a SAP! LE is allowed in CA
http://www.ehow.com/list_7439029_cal...ws-batons.html

__________________
Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

This is my key chain fob; paracord braided over a 2 ounce egg sinker.



I also have a Texan like the one bottom right; and something similar, but not matching one of the smaller ones in the top row:

Make your own sap (perfectly legal until used).

Buy several rolls of Saran Wrap. Start by rolling a piece into the smallest tube you are able. Add more wrap until it is about 1" thick. This makes a perfectly excellent sap. You can peel off the bloody parts after each use and still have a nice clean surface.

This is an amazingly damaging cudgle. You can explain its existence by saying your collect your old Saran Wrap for re-cycling. Indeed, if you pack a lunch you can make yours from the used wrap.

It's okay...you're new here....



As for their effectiveness, saps are mean mothers...I would not want to be hit with one...a shot to the head is coma time...just ask this big brute who didn't want to go quietly with my dad and his partner...

__________________
Thirty characters. Exactly...

The prosecution was background. In fact, the cop was originally given probation and administrative punishment for the LOCAL violation encompassing the assault. The Federal prosecution took place just as his suspension was expiring (three years, I think).


I'm not surprised that you're confused. Most things relating to law enforcement in Chicago are confusing, even when you KNOW what happened.

He musta fallen down a flight of stairs.

I have carried a beavertail sap and a spring sap in plain clothes but I was never confident in how hard to "slap" and when necessary, only tried to " tap" with the edge of the beavertail.I never tried to hit with a spring sap 'cause I was afraid I might cause a skull fracture.
I was out on a stolen car at Ft.Bliss, TX. one night with a 5 "D" cell flashlight.I had the light on my right shoulder and was illuminating the perps Drivers License when he got "squirrelly" with me and tried to"push me off"[quess who was packing]I snapped my wrist forward and layed that Kel-lite upside the left side of his head. I wasn't trying to crush his skull and thought at the time it was an "attention getting" tap.Well, the knurling and weight of that Kel-lite,[and maybe a little adrenaline] peeled a 3"x 4"patch of his "rug' off to the bone and nearly tore his left ear half off! If you've ever seen a head wound you know how much blood can flow.The "brother' had a very interestning scar to show off when he got to the Ft Leavenworth Confinement Facility. I'm not sure if he, or I,were more scared!I was afraid he was going to bleed to death!
At that time , I finally understood the Military Police doctrine that a night stick is a punching ,thrusting weapon NOT a swinging baseball bat. Nick

Cwo4usc, that braided paracord looks great. It actually prompted me to look up how to do it. If you don't mind my asking, how did you do the ends of the cord at the sinker end in order to keep it tight? I may just order some cord and try a little braiding. I see lots of uses for that. Thx for sharing.

JP

Christ on a cracker! That's not a sap...... that's a baseball bat!!!

When I went to work for a police department in Virginia in the early 80s, while being sized for the uniform, I was asked if I wanted trousers with the blackjack pocket on the left or right side. State troopers had an extra pocket, below a rear pocket opening for their blackjacks.

Even then, the academy had no training program for use of the blackjack or sap. I suspect no LE agencies train their officers to use them these days. Without standards for use of the devices, it's hard to defend them in court.

In Florida, a CCW allows you to carry billies and knives as well as handguns. I thought about getting one until some LEO's on this forum expressed how deadly they could be.
In boot camp our company commander taught us how to hide a roll of dimes in our dress blue neckerchiefs.

In New York "Deadly force" is defined as anything that is likely to cause a death or permanent disfigurement.Certainly the use of a blackjack would qualify as deadly physical force (in New York--I cannot speak for other jurisdictions).

So the use of an "unlicensed" deadly physical force weapon (the blackjack) would likely get you into more trouble than the legally licensed handgun.

If you need to protect yourself or others then the licensed handgun is the weapon to go for. They both represent "deadly physical force".

I cannot think of a single situation where the civilian use of a sap would be legally acceptable in New York (and probably in other areas too). This would be so even it the ownership of these weapons were legal. I think these fall into the catagory with brass knuckles and switchblades--much more trouble than they are worth.

If the police have any reason to search your home a collection of these weapons could cause you grief (in New York, for sure; in other places maybe).

Legally safer is to carry a Mini-Maglight which is a thinly disguised Kubaton, a Japanese striking weapon. There are videos showing the Kubaton Kata, the practicing of which would make you very deadly in hand to hand combat carrying a perfectly legal flashlight.