Good articles-latest American Handgunner

WR Moore

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Very good reading in the latest issue of American Handgunner. Tom Givens makes some really good points on non-law enforcement armed encounters. Mas Ayoob has both the Ayoob Files and his column on the altered trigger issue.

Think I'll get some popcorn and sit back. Please keep commentary on the issues, not personalities.
 
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I haven't received my copy yet but look forward to reading that one. I'm also getting an extra large tub of popcorn. Should be interesting!
 
Ordered this recently because I was really enjoying it. Hope to receive soon.


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Very good reading in the latest issue of American Handgunner. Tom Givens makes some really good points on non-law enforcement armed encounters. Mas Ayoob has both the Ayoob Files and his column on the altered trigger issue.

Think I'll get some popcorn and sit back. Please keep commentary on the issues, not personalities.

It doesn't have anything to do with personalities, but if you are referring to the Santibanes incident, Ayoob got it all wrong again. I am surprised that he referred to that case, since it contradicts his theory on light triggers.

Eddie Santibanes sued the city of Tomball, TX and Sgt Williams, alleging constitutional violations of his Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendment rights. The motion for summary judgement was filed by the defendants, arguing (among other things) that the shooting was an accident and, since a constitutional violation is a result of an intentional act, the suit should be dismissed.

Ayoob wrote "A review of Judge Holt’s ruling, which can be found online at Leagle.com | Leagle, makes it clear the “hair trigger” issue raised by plaintiff’s counsel was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and led to the ruling that instead of being dismissed, this case would have to go to trial".

Apparently, Ayoob did not actually read the document. Why would the plaintiff bring up the 'hair trigger' when it could only support the accident claim of the defendant. He also missed this statement: " Next, there is no argument nor record support to suggest that Sergeant Williams' weapon malfunctioned or otherwise discharged as a result of some force other than that applied by him. In fact, forensic testing found that the weapon functioned properly when tested and fired under controlled conditions.9 Hence, the only logical explanation for its discharge is that Sergeant Williams applied force to its trigger mechanism. This circumstance, alone, is sufficient to deny summary judgment. E.g., Sepulveda v. Hawn, No. CV 01-5054, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 11362 (E.D.Cal. May 16, 2002) (denying summary judgment where there was no evidence that police officer's weapon malfunctioned; observing that the only reasonable explanation for the discharge is that the police officer pulled the trigger)".

What that means is, a light trigger is not evidence of an accident. The document is found here: SANTIBANES v. CITY OF TOMBALL, TEX. | Leagle.com
 
Actually, the section you quote applies to a particular claim or claims, that does require an intentional act.

However, in allowing the reduction of trigger pull weight below the specification set by the manufacturer, the department set themselves up for a trial on the basis of negligence and failure to supervise.

"Finally, the Court takes note of the modification to Sergeant Williams' weapon. In particular, he initially stated that his weapon—a Glock brand 21, .45 caliber pistol—had not been modified. However, after forensic testing and inspection, it was revealed that the weapon had, in fact, been modified in three separate respects. The relevant modification was to the weapon's trigger connector.12 The record also shows that Sergeant Williams, prior to the incident, replaced the pistol's 5 pound trigger connector with a Glock 3.5 pound trigger connector. Forensic testing determined that this modification reduced the force needed to pull the trigger to approximately 4.5 pounds, making it easier to fire the weapon. IN LIGHT OF THESE CONSIDERATIONS, WHETHER SERGEANT WILLIAMS, IN FACT, INTENDED TO DISCHARGE HIS WEAPON IS AN ISSUE THAT CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE RESOLVED AT THE SUMMARY JUDGEMENT STAGE."

Further: "Based on the foregoing discussion, the Court hereby GRANTS the City's motion for summary judgment on the plaintiff's § 1983 claims premised on violations of the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments [based on your reference above and others] and DENIES the City's motion for summary judgment on the plaintiff's § 1983 claims premised on an excessive force violation of the Fourth Amendment and the City's failure to train, supervise and adopt policies. The City's motion for summary judgment is also DENIED as to the plaintiff's claim for negligence under the TTCA."

While this was a Federal proceeding, you can safely assume that a tort action in state court on similar grounds can happen. Also, win or lose, it's gonna cost you big bucks.
 
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IN LIGHT OF THESE CONSIDERATIONS, WHETHER SERGEANT WILLIAMS, IN FACT, INTENDED TO DISCHARGE HIS WEAPON IS AN ISSUE THAT CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE RESOLVED AT THE SUMMARY JUDGEMENT STAGE."

That is just what I said. The gun modifications were not evidence of an AD, therefore were not grounds for a summary judgement of dismissal.


While this was a Federal proceeding, you can safely assume that a tort action in state court on similar grounds can happen. Also, win or lose, it's gonna cost you big bucks.

True, and if his pistol had been completely stock, he is still going to trial.
 
Back to Tom Givens Article

When Citizens Fight Back
By Tom Givens
American Handgunner Volumn 39 Number 5- Issue229 Page 56
Tom is a firearms trainer in Memphis, which is high on The List of places you need to conceal carry. He has trained thousands of students over the years per his article. He has 64 students in his data base who have been involved in self defense shooting incidents that he knows of to date of article.
He covers the differences in Law Enforcement encounters, and Armed Citizen encounters in some detail.
Then he goes into some detail of how and where most of the citizen encounters happen.
His data indicates that Citizen Encounters happen close and in a hurry most of the time, and normally away from home.
I was impressed with the outcome of the Citizen Encounters. His students came out on top in 62 out of 64 incidents, with only a handful (3) being injured.
That is not the results the main stream media wants to see in print.
I thought his article was well written, and provided some very good information. I recomend finding a copy to check out.

Some Points I took away from reading this article were:
Always Carry
Carry in a manner that you can get your gun in play quickly.
Awareness, know what is going on around you.
Practice your weapon presentation regularly, and get it right.
Practice with your concealed carry handgun and be able to hit from 10 feet to 25 yards with it.
Practice close range draw and fire exercises.
Carry a reload, as you will want to fire until the threat is over. You may be empty at that point.


Bob R
 
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I found Givens article interesting for the simple fact that his student survival ratio may very well have been 100% had all his students been carrying. For those that haven't read it, the only students of his who died were unarmed and murdered.
 
It doesn't have anything to do with personalities, but if you are referring to the Santibanes incident, Ayoob got it all wrong again. I am surprised that he referred to that case, since it contradicts his theory on light triggers.

Eddie Santibanes sued the city of Tomball, TX and Sgt Williams, alleging constitutional violations of his Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendment rights. The motion for summary judgement was filed by the defendants, arguing (among other things) that the shooting was an accident and, since a constitutional violation is a result of an intentional act, the suit should be dismissed.

Ayoob wrote "A review of Judge Holt’s ruling, which can be found online at Leagle.com | Leagle, makes it clear the “hair trigger” issue raised by plaintiff’s counsel was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and led to the ruling that instead of being dismissed, this case would have to go to trial".

Apparently, Ayoob did not actually read the document. Why would the plaintiff bring up the 'hair trigger' when it could only support the accident claim of the defendant. He also missed this statement: " Next, there is no argument nor record support to suggest that Sergeant Williams' weapon malfunctioned or otherwise discharged as a result of some force other than that applied by him. In fact, forensic testing found that the weapon functioned properly when tested and fired under controlled conditions.9 Hence, the only logical explanation for its discharge is that Sergeant Williams applied force to its trigger mechanism. This circumstance, alone, is sufficient to deny summary judgment. E.g., Sepulveda v. Hawn, No. CV 01-5054, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 11362 (E.D.Cal. May 16, 2002) (denying summary judgment where there was no evidence that police officer's weapon malfunctioned; observing that the only reasonable explanation for the discharge is that the police officer pulled the trigger)".

What that means is, a light trigger is not evidence of an accident. The document is found here: SANTIBANES v. CITY OF TOMBALL, TEX. | Leagle.com

Sir, you don't seem to quite grasp how these things work. You ask, "Why would the plaintiff bring up the 'hair trigger'...?" If you actually read the article, and the further explanation of the problems with light triggers in the Cop Talk column in the same issue, you would know that the plaintiff was using it to show actionable negligence.

I have been working on "hair trigger" cases -- genuine accidental discharges, and falsely alleged ones -- for 30 years now. I went to Texas and researched this case there. LAPD and other agencies went to double action only revolvers to combat this problem before I got on the scene; it's nothing new.

It's important to be able to distinguish between "how we think things should be" and "how things actually are."
 
Sir, you don't seem to quite grasp how these things work. You ask, "Why would the plaintiff bring up the 'hair trigger'...?" If you actually read the article, and the further explanation of the problems with light triggers in the Cop Talk column in the same issue, you would know that the plaintiff was using it to show actionable negligence.

O.K., maybe I need to actually read it again. Here are a couple of statements to look at:

"The plaintiff further alleges that the truck's driver was in the course of pulling to the shoulder of the roadway in compliance with the command to do so when, without warning or provocation, Sergeant Williams intentionally fired a single shot into the truck causing serious bodily injury to the plaintiff".


"If, in fact, Sergeant Williams accidentally fired his weapon— meaning that if he truly did not intend by means of his weapon to restrain the plaintiff—then no seizure has occurred, and the plaintiff's Fourth Amendment claim fails.

In this regard, the City contends that the summary judgment evidence undeniably establishes that the shooting was an accident".


Now, just which side was claiming the shot was an accident?

What was the evidence that established the shooting was an accident?


It's important to be able to distinguish between "how we think things should be" and "how things actually are."

Correct, and in this case, the lighter trigger was not a reason to deny summary judgement. I just was not a reason for summary judgement. In other words, it had no effect on the ruling.

You got it wrong with NY v Magliato too.
 
Shooter 5112, your re-reading of the article is indeed in order. Since you write here that you don't even know which side claimed the shooting was accidental, it's hard to believe that you've read it at all. With all due respect, reading it will help you to understand what you'r talking about.

You don't seem to fully grasp the Magliato case, either.
 
Shooter 5112, your re-reading of the article is indeed in order. Since you write here that you don't even know which side claimed the shooting was accidental, it's hard to believe that you've read it at all. With all due respect, reading it will help you to understand what you'r talking about.

I believe I pointed out to you that it was the defendant that claimed the shooting was accidental. Perhaps you need to read it.

You don't seem to fully grasp the Magliato case, either.

I grasp it well enough to know you got it wrong.

The appeal was not argued in federal court, it was the NY state Court of Appeals.

I know that the 4.5# trigger pull was not held to justify the conviction. What the judge did say about the light trigger - after Manny Kapelsohn and another expert witness (you?) testified how dangerous the 4.5# pull was - was that merely pointing such a weapon at another was an act of deadly force, and subject to law of self-defense.

What justified Magliato's conviction was, after being threatened earlier by Giani, he went home, got his gun, and went looking for him. Then, when he found Giani, he had the opportunity to safely retreat, but did not.

There was a reason Magliato's lawyer "definitely" did not want the court to charge the jury on the defense of justification.
 
Sorry sir, but the attitude you’re showing here is much bigger than your knowledge of either case.
The article in question can be found at Unintended Shot: The Santibanes Incident | American Handgunner. The judge’s ruling on the motion for summary judgment can be found at SANTIBANES v. CITY OF TOMBALL, TEX. | Leagle.com . The judge said in part, “The record also shows that Sergeant Williams, prior to the incident, replaced the pistol's 5 pound trigger connector with a Glock 3.5 pound trigger connector. Forensic testing determined that this modification reduced the force needed to pull the trigger to approximately 4.5 pounds, making it easier to fire the weapon. In light of these considerations, whether Sergeant Williams, in fact, intended to discharge his weapon is an issue that cannot and should not be resolved at the summary judgment stage.”

For you to imply that the 3.5/4.5 lb connector had nothing to do with it is simply false.

In the Magliato appeal, PEOPLE v. MAGLIATO | Leagle.com , the majority decision reduced the conviction for depraved murder to manslaughter, stating that the pointing of a cocked revolver at someone was sufficiently reckless to sustain a manslaughter conviction. Interestingly, the dissenting opinion felt it was grave enough that it SHOULD have sustained a depraved murder conviction. From the dissent: “When defendant went into a shooter's crouch, cocked and aimed the gun at Giani's head, he was acting in such a reckless manner as to evidence a depraved indifference to life.”

shooter5112, your allegations that the light trigger pulls were not an issue are simply false. I discussed the Santibanes case at length with the involved officer and his chief, and reviewed the official reports, the officer’s deposition, etc. The documents confirm what the chief and the sergeant say: that plaintiff’s counsel went after the “hair trigger” issue with a vengeance.

In the Magliato case, the judge specifically disallowed any expert testimony on self-defense issues on the grounds that self-defense was a defense reserved for intentional acts. I discussed it in depth with both his defense attorneys and with the other expert witness on the matter, Manny Kapelsohn, and of course, with Frank Magliato himself. None of us actually involved in the case doubt that the “hair trigger” effect and resulting unintended discharge were huge issues in NY v. Magliato.

I’ll continue to place far more weight on the input of those actually involved, than on anonymous internet pundits with agendas, who don’t know the whole stories behind the cases upon which they pontificate.
 
Sorry sir, but the attitude you’re showing here is much bigger than your knowledge of either case.
The article in question can be found at Unintended Shot: The Santibanes Incident | American Handgunner. The judge’s ruling on the motion for summary judgment can be found at SANTIBANES v. CITY OF TOMBALL, TEX. | Leagle.com . The judge said in part, “The record also shows that Sergeant Williams, prior to the incident, replaced the pistol's 5 pound trigger connector with a Glock 3.5 pound trigger connector. Forensic testing determined that this modification reduced the force needed to pull the trigger to approximately 4.5 pounds, making it easier to fire the weapon. In light of these considerations, whether Sergeant Williams, in fact, intended to discharge his weapon is an issue that cannot and should not be resolved at the summary judgment stage.”

Thanks for making my point. The argument for summary judgement was the shooting was an accident, therefore negating the claim of violation of the fourth amendment. The judge is simply saying nothing has been presented to verify that argument. Also there is this:

"Specifically, the Harris County Sheriff's Department, in cooperation with the Harris County District Attorney's Police Integrity Unit, conducted an investigation and presented its findings to a Harris County grand jury which
[654 F.Supp.2d 604]
no-billed Sergeant Williams.6 The Tomball Police Department also conducted a concurrent internal investigation.7 It concluded that Sergeant Williams acted properly and that no evidence suggested that he intentionally fired his weapon. The defendants' expert, Albert Rodriguez, reached the same conclusion.8 Rodriguez surmises that Sergeant Williams' weapon discharged as a result of an involuntary contraction of the arm or hand muscles.

Despite these findings, the Court finds sufficient evidence to create a factual controversy as to whether Sergeant Williams intentionally fired his weapon. In reaching this conclusion, the Court first considers the actions which Sergeant Williams and the City do not dispute were intentional such as: (1) the fact that Sergeant Williams maneuvered his patrol vehicle alongside the truck; (2) the fact that Sergeant Williams upholstered his weapon; and (3) the fact that Sergeant Williams pointed the weapon in the direction of the truck's occupants. Next, there is no argument nor record support to suggest that Sergeant Williams' weapon malfunctioned or otherwise discharged as a result of some force other than that applied by him. In fact, forensic testing found that the weapon functioned properly when tested and fired under controlled conditions.9 Hence, the only logical explanation for its discharge is that Sergeant Williams applied force to its trigger mechanism. This circumstance, alone, is sufficient to deny summary judgment. E.g., Sepulveda v. Hawn, No. CV 01-5054, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 11362 (E.D.Cal. May 16, 2002) (denying summary judgment where there was no evidence that police officer's weapon malfunctioned; observing that the only reasonable explanation for the discharge is that the police officer pulled the trigger)".


For you to imply that the 3.5/4.5 lb connector had nothing to do with it is simply false.

Since the court did not dismiss the Fourth Amendment suit, it is apparent they did not accept the 'accident' as presented by the defendant.

In the Magliato appeal, PEOPLE v. MAGLIATO | Leagle.com , the majority decision reduced the conviction for depraved murder to manslaughter, stating that the pointing of a cocked revolver at someone was sufficiently reckless to sustain a manslaughter conviction. Interestingly, the dissenting opinion felt it was grave enough that it SHOULD have sustained a depraved murder conviction. From the dissent: “When defendant went into a shooter's crouch, cocked and aimed the gun at Giani's head, he was acting in such a reckless manner as to evidence a depraved indifference to life.”

Again, you have made my point. Magliato was not justified in using deadly force. Why would it be "sufficiently reckless to sustain a manslaughter conviction" to point a cocked revolver at someone that one is justified in killing?

I looked at your link and noticed one glaring fact. Self defense is never mentioned.


In the Magliato case, the judge specifically disallowed any expert testimony on self-defense issues on the grounds that self-defense was a defense reserved for intentional acts.

The facts contradict that. This is what the judge said:

"At the charging conference, defense counsel stated that he "definitely" did not want the court to charge on the defense of justification under Penal Law § 35.15. Nevertheless, defendant sought to argue that he was justified in drawing the weapon, but not in firing it. The court informed defense counsel that if he made such an argument, the justification defense would be charged".

The "no such thing as a justified accident" was the defendant's argument. From the second appeal you will find this:

"On this appeal defendant argues that, because he claimed the discharge of his pistol was accidental, and did not claim that he fired it in self-defense, the justification defense is inapplicable. He maintains that justification does not apply to an unintentional crime, and that drawing his pistol did not constitute a "use of deadly physical force" within the meaning of Penal Law § 35.15. These arguments are without merit.

(2) Defendant's contention that the law of justification has no bearing on his conduct, solely because the discharge of his pistol was accidental, requires little comment. It is settled that the defense of justification applies fully to a defendant's risk-creating conduct, even though it had unintended consequences (see, People v McManus, 67 NY2d 541; *29 People v Huntley, 59 NY2d 868)".

I’ll continue to place far more weight on the input of those actually involved, than on anonymous internet pundits with agendas, who don’t know the whole stories behind the cases upon which they pontificate.

And I'll place more weight on what is written in official documents than in magazine columns.
 
Unfortunately, shooter5112, you either don't have enough of those official documents, or are ignoring the ones that don't apply to the ax you want to grind. Whether your problem is simple lack of knowledge or disingenuous cherry-picking, only you can answer.

As noted earlier, you are apparently not aware of how much emphasis the plaintiffs were putting on the lightened trigger prior to the settlement in Santibanes...or are pointedly ignoring it.

In Magliato, I had no involvement in the appeal and can only speak to what happened at trial, which is where the poor guy was convicted in the first place. You are regurgitating the prosecution theory, which is that he went hunting for the man he shot, and which much like the Zimmerman prosecutors' similar theory is at odds with the facts in evidence.

For any impartial person who simply wants to know what happened and what the "hair trigger" issue had to do with it, I offer the following link:
The Gun Zone -- Magliato Notes . shooter5112, it was written in response to a fellow from your state, who writes in a style remarkably similar to your own. (Hint: when the JURORS publicly state that the defendant didn't get a fair verdict at their hands, it means something.)

I would also offer the following, from the same discussion, from attorney and expert witness Manny Kapelsohn: The Gun Zone -- Magliato Notes, Part 2 .
 
In Magliato, I had no involvement in the appeal and can only speak to what happened at trial, which is where the poor guy was convicted in the first place. You are regurgitating the prosecution theory, which is that he went hunting for the man he shot, and which much like the Zimmerman prosecutors' similar theory is at odds with the facts in evidence.

Well, the prosecution theory had a lot of support. It is a fact that Magliato did go home to get his gun. It is a fact that he did find Giani and shoot him.

For any impartial person who simply wants to know what happened and what the "hair trigger" issue had to do with it, I offer the following link:
The Gun Zone -- Magliato Notes . shooter5112, it was written in response to a fellow from your state, who writes in a style remarkably similar to your own. (Hint: when the JURORS publicly state that the defendant didn't get a fair verdict at their hands, it means something.)

To find out what really happened, the impartial person could look here at the second appeal decision which addresses just what we are discussing. The Gun Zone -- State of New York v. Frank Magliato

I would also offer the following, from the same discussion, from attorney and expert witness Manny Kapelsohn: The Gun Zone -- Magliato Notes, Part 2 .

All Manny is saying there is that a light trigger made it probable that Magliato's shot was an accident. I have no argument with that. However, he doesn't address whether he was justified. He did say this though:
"Looking back at the Magiato case, I don't think the jury so much doubted that Magliato had fired the shot unintentionally, as that the jury blamed him for stopping at his house to retrieve his handgun, then going looking ("gunning") for the suspects, and, after shooting one of them (whether accidentally or not), fleeing the scene and not turning himself in for several days".
 
Fail, shooter5112. You contradict yourself with your own link. You claim to buy into the prosecution theory that Magliato hunted down Giani, yet the link you cite -- The Gun Zone -- State of New York v. Frank Magliato -- expressly shows that Magliato was en route to the police station to report the hit-and-run by Giani and his accomplice, when he spotted their parked vehicle and stopped to phone police and report the location. As the document shows, Giani then appeared and approached Magliato in a menacing fashion with his club drawn, and only then did Magliato draw his gun.

Its there to see, for any who care to read it...and don't have a personal agenda.
 
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