I believe he wrote " "1" screen" not "1 dot".
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A FEW GOOD REASONS NOT TO USE OPTICS ON A EDC/CCW GUN
- Thread starter chief38
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I believe he wrote " "1" screen" not "1 dot".
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Having been a shooter for over 60 years fixed sights on old Colts were my first. When on Army team and AMU taught us the basics and the Best shooting techniques. We shot Combat matches which were different than Bullseye. Learned alot. Since then have carried fixed or adjustable sight pistols for CCW. Now at 73 years have added Crimson Trace grips to my CCW LW Commander that has tritium fixed sights that I use at the range. Can say that at 20 yards and less rounds stay on B-27 repair in 9 to X ring.
Is this the updated version about the argument whether fixed or adjustable sights are best on a defensive pistol?
OP
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As far as Night Sights are concerned:
I have only one pistol that has nights on it. That is my Sig P365 and the only reason they are on it is because it came from the factory that way. Quite honestly, when pulled out of a holster or night table draw, they are so dim that it takes at least 4-5 seconds to even see them. Even if you saw them instantly, that won't help illuminate the intended target. While I suppose they might be easier to acquire when you are in a dark room for a longer period of time, I would not have installed them as an after market option if they were not on there from the Factory.
In my home I have always put 4-5 LED automatic low-light nightlights. I have them in strategic locations so that I can see what is lurking in the dark, but not bright enough for someone who does not know my home's layout to know where we are. It gives me just enough light to see the sights on a gun and be able to see the intruder at he same time. They also are great when I get up a few times to make a bathroom run late at night - LOL!!
I doubt fiber optic sights would be usable (as intended) at very very low light conditions either and in the daytime (indoors), would function basically as plain sights unless in direct sunlight.
I have only one pistol that has nights on it. That is my Sig P365 and the only reason they are on it is because it came from the factory that way. Quite honestly, when pulled out of a holster or night table draw, they are so dim that it takes at least 4-5 seconds to even see them. Even if you saw them instantly, that won't help illuminate the intended target. While I suppose they might be easier to acquire when you are in a dark room for a longer period of time, I would not have installed them as an after market option if they were not on there from the Factory.
In my home I have always put 4-5 LED automatic low-light nightlights. I have them in strategic locations so that I can see what is lurking in the dark, but not bright enough for someone who does not know my home's layout to know where we are. It gives me just enough light to see the sights on a gun and be able to see the intruder at he same time. They also are great when I get up a few times to make a bathroom run late at night - LOL!!
I doubt fiber optic sights would be usable (as intended) at very very low light conditions either and in the daytime (indoors), would function basically as plain sights unless in direct sunlight.
Playing the devil’s advocate here, you can make the same arguments about optics on rifles and many did - especially back in the ‘50’s. Scopes were expensive, bulky, unnecessary and prone to failure. Real men shot deer with iron sights. It took time but look where we are now with rifle optics. I predict the same for handguns. As us “old guys” fade away, new shooters coming on line will use them routinely and without fear of failure. You sure don’t have to change if you don’t want to but the future will come anyway. Pistol optics are here to stay and more people use them every year.
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I'm fairly dot "agnostic" but there's quite a bit of misinformation in this thread.
The first is the idea of looking for the dot. One doesn't look for the dot. One looks at a precise point on the target and superimposes the dot on that spot. The ability to do that is built from one's index.
The fastest most accurate shooters in the world are all to a man shooting with a target focus versus a focus on the sighting system, whether that's irons or a dot. In fact they shoot optics and irons the same exact way.
One interesting discussion that's been brought to the forefront of firearms training as a result of RDS proliferation is "single focal plane" shooting versus "three focal plane" shooting. Which brings up the efficacy of how we have been training shooters to align a post in a notch in traditional iron sight orthodoxy.
Some have already commented that most pistol fights are "up close and personal" which is generally true. What most disconnect from is that despite the distance being close, the target offered may very well be low probability or even partially obscured. It's doubtful that a bad guy is going to stand squared and still like a B-27 cardboard and let you punch his X ring.
Finally the idea that dots are fine for range or casual use and not appropriate for the rigors of an uncontrolled, unpredictable environment contradicts the FACT that operators from both CAG and DEVGRU have been killing bad guys quite well with RDS equipped pistols in austere environments for quite some time now. Guys from Ground Branch have killed several bad guys with RDS equipped handguns within the past year. I know them personally.
So to reiterate irons or dot...meh...totally up to you. Just make sure that your choice is informed by actual well-grounded CURRENT facts versus subjectivity, heresay, or dabbling.
The first is the idea of looking for the dot. One doesn't look for the dot. One looks at a precise point on the target and superimposes the dot on that spot. The ability to do that is built from one's index.
The fastest most accurate shooters in the world are all to a man shooting with a target focus versus a focus on the sighting system, whether that's irons or a dot. In fact they shoot optics and irons the same exact way.
One interesting discussion that's been brought to the forefront of firearms training as a result of RDS proliferation is "single focal plane" shooting versus "three focal plane" shooting. Which brings up the efficacy of how we have been training shooters to align a post in a notch in traditional iron sight orthodoxy.
Some have already commented that most pistol fights are "up close and personal" which is generally true. What most disconnect from is that despite the distance being close, the target offered may very well be low probability or even partially obscured. It's doubtful that a bad guy is going to stand squared and still like a B-27 cardboard and let you punch his X ring.
Finally the idea that dots are fine for range or casual use and not appropriate for the rigors of an uncontrolled, unpredictable environment contradicts the FACT that operators from both CAG and DEVGRU have been killing bad guys quite well with RDS equipped pistols in austere environments for quite some time now. Guys from Ground Branch have killed several bad guys with RDS equipped handguns within the past year. I know them personally.
So to reiterate irons or dot...meh...totally up to you. Just make sure that your choice is informed by actual well-grounded CURRENT facts versus subjectivity, heresay, or dabbling.
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Shrek Of The Arctic
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I'm not a red dot hater, but I'm a man who has doubts. I rarely voice these doubts though. When addressing the red dot faithful, it seems less likely to start a fight than lewd and obscene comments about their wives. My son is among the faithful, so we have had many interesting discussions on the topic. I don't hate them. I have one on a Glock clone that I'm still trying to make peace with.
I have seen a good many of what I consider to be failures with my own two eyes between low key leagues and competitions as well as shooting with my son and brother.
My son's Trijicon SRO once fogged up with ice fog so awfully that I could not see through it. We were shooting on a very cold Winter day that had a bit of ice ice fog. My son left his pistol on the bench a few moments while setting up targets, etc. Called range hot and picked it up. Totally blocked screen from fogging and misting over.
Solution: use a good anti fog wipe such as " cat ****" regularly. That would indeed be a solution. Add that to your regular routine and it's all just fine.
Same Trijicon SRO now in the Summer: we had a "bring a friend day" at our league. My wife and I both invited our son. It was a pretty intensive course of fire requiring at least 60 rounds anyways. My son is normally a very decent shooter. He stepped to the line and started blazing away and missing terribly. He dumped mags where I had fired controlled pairs. Afterwards, when I asked him what happened, he told me his dot failed. He was trying to fire using the silhouette of the dot and failing miserably, even on targets as close as 7 yards. He had turned it on and checked before leaving the house. A few days later he opened the battery compartment to see that some time in the last month or so since he shot it the battery had exploded. There was battery goo and corrosion all over his battery compartment. This was a brand new included battery with a very expensive optic. Solution: run a quality battery? Physically pull it out and inspect it on a regular schedule? Add that to your routine.
Another Trijicon red dot. Son showed up to a Steel Challenge shooting an optics division. Was shooting an optics division. Shot really bad again. Eventually realized that some time in the last week the dot had worked itself loose and was barely secured on the gun. It had been properly torqued and installed with factory included thread locker. Solution...I guess use a quality known thread lock. Check mounting firmness regularly. Don't forget lens wipes. Don't forget physical battery inspection.
Vortex Viper- Brother was shooting his. Suddenly two pieces fly off and hit him in the head and face. Turned out his battery cover got loose. Searched 10 minutes for missing pieces, re-assembled, went back to shooting. Easy solution. Make sure it's screwed down all the way. It'll be easy to check regularly between adding cat ****, quality battery, checking battery regularly, and checking mounting is still secure. Just don't get distracted while doing this routine. Whatever you do, don't let your wife, children, pets, neighbors, phone calls from work, or door to door sales people distract ya'...
I can't count the number of dot failures on my rifle when shooting on cold days inparticular. I'm told that newer quality dots that have 50K hour battery lives don't do that. Apparently my dots didn't get the memo that they can't fail when it's 20 below zero.
On the other hand, I can count times when dots have really impressed me. I did a beginner's league last Summer. Not like learning basics, but learning basics for action shooting. I was the only guy who shot a revolver, so...there wasn't any competition for me. I looked at the scores one day and decided to compare mine to the open sight service pistol category...closest I could find to a revolver category. Turned out, I had done fantastically well. I ranked very highly, which is kinda cool for comparing a revolver score to all the excellent service autos out there. Then I compared my scored to the carry optic division. I was darn near dead last. And I knew many people who had beat my score were novice shooters altogether.
Another time I was shooting a snubby K frame and doing very well at 15-20 yards hitting small steel. I was making some very fast. Solid hits. Heck. I was fortunate to not dislocate my arm patting myself on the back! Then some other shooters show up beside me. A guy gives his wife a dot sighted Glock and the usual basic instructions. She clearly was not a person who shot much. Within a few minutes she was really close to my own speed. If not slightly better. I muttered under my breath, said something about darn whippersnapper kids and their Eelectronic gadgets, laughed at myself and called it a day.
At ASI, my son expected to see a buncha old men swearing about the 1911 and M-14 being the last good guns ever made, etc. He was very surprised to see those old men all carrying modern polymer weapons and sporting red dots. They apparently use them well too, because I sure struggle against them.
Most of my red dot doubts though center around the fact that I do not want another routine added to my life. I do not want to do a pre-flight inspection before carrying my concealed pistol. If I lived in some awful crime ridden city, I might feel different. But
..I live in the suburbs...in Alaska. My J frame usually seems quite adequate. On days that it's not, my full size 8 shot iron sighted 357 certainly is. When it comes down to it, I think a life preserving inspection would be better spent on seatbelts, brakes, air bags, emergency car gear, first aid kits, fire extinguishers, etc.
I will continue working with the red dot pistol I have. I will one day add a red dot to one of my revolvers. But...y'all just gotta forgive me for not jumping in with both feet. I still have doubts.
I have seen a good many of what I consider to be failures with my own two eyes between low key leagues and competitions as well as shooting with my son and brother.
My son's Trijicon SRO once fogged up with ice fog so awfully that I could not see through it. We were shooting on a very cold Winter day that had a bit of ice ice fog. My son left his pistol on the bench a few moments while setting up targets, etc. Called range hot and picked it up. Totally blocked screen from fogging and misting over.
Solution: use a good anti fog wipe such as " cat ****" regularly. That would indeed be a solution. Add that to your regular routine and it's all just fine.
Same Trijicon SRO now in the Summer: we had a "bring a friend day" at our league. My wife and I both invited our son. It was a pretty intensive course of fire requiring at least 60 rounds anyways. My son is normally a very decent shooter. He stepped to the line and started blazing away and missing terribly. He dumped mags where I had fired controlled pairs. Afterwards, when I asked him what happened, he told me his dot failed. He was trying to fire using the silhouette of the dot and failing miserably, even on targets as close as 7 yards. He had turned it on and checked before leaving the house. A few days later he opened the battery compartment to see that some time in the last month or so since he shot it the battery had exploded. There was battery goo and corrosion all over his battery compartment. This was a brand new included battery with a very expensive optic. Solution: run a quality battery? Physically pull it out and inspect it on a regular schedule? Add that to your routine.
Another Trijicon red dot. Son showed up to a Steel Challenge shooting an optics division. Was shooting an optics division. Shot really bad again. Eventually realized that some time in the last week the dot had worked itself loose and was barely secured on the gun. It had been properly torqued and installed with factory included thread locker. Solution...I guess use a quality known thread lock. Check mounting firmness regularly. Don't forget lens wipes. Don't forget physical battery inspection.
Vortex Viper- Brother was shooting his. Suddenly two pieces fly off and hit him in the head and face. Turned out his battery cover got loose. Searched 10 minutes for missing pieces, re-assembled, went back to shooting. Easy solution. Make sure it's screwed down all the way. It'll be easy to check regularly between adding cat ****, quality battery, checking battery regularly, and checking mounting is still secure. Just don't get distracted while doing this routine. Whatever you do, don't let your wife, children, pets, neighbors, phone calls from work, or door to door sales people distract ya'...
I can't count the number of dot failures on my rifle when shooting on cold days inparticular. I'm told that newer quality dots that have 50K hour battery lives don't do that. Apparently my dots didn't get the memo that they can't fail when it's 20 below zero.
On the other hand, I can count times when dots have really impressed me. I did a beginner's league last Summer. Not like learning basics, but learning basics for action shooting. I was the only guy who shot a revolver, so...there wasn't any competition for me. I looked at the scores one day and decided to compare mine to the open sight service pistol category...closest I could find to a revolver category. Turned out, I had done fantastically well. I ranked very highly, which is kinda cool for comparing a revolver score to all the excellent service autos out there. Then I compared my scored to the carry optic division. I was darn near dead last. And I knew many people who had beat my score were novice shooters altogether.
Another time I was shooting a snubby K frame and doing very well at 15-20 yards hitting small steel. I was making some very fast. Solid hits. Heck. I was fortunate to not dislocate my arm patting myself on the back! Then some other shooters show up beside me. A guy gives his wife a dot sighted Glock and the usual basic instructions. She clearly was not a person who shot much. Within a few minutes she was really close to my own speed. If not slightly better. I muttered under my breath, said something about darn whippersnapper kids and their Eelectronic gadgets, laughed at myself and called it a day.
At ASI, my son expected to see a buncha old men swearing about the 1911 and M-14 being the last good guns ever made, etc. He was very surprised to see those old men all carrying modern polymer weapons and sporting red dots. They apparently use them well too, because I sure struggle against them.
Most of my red dot doubts though center around the fact that I do not want another routine added to my life. I do not want to do a pre-flight inspection before carrying my concealed pistol. If I lived in some awful crime ridden city, I might feel different. But
..I live in the suburbs...in Alaska. My J frame usually seems quite adequate. On days that it's not, my full size 8 shot iron sighted 357 certainly is. When it comes down to it, I think a life preserving inspection would be better spent on seatbelts, brakes, air bags, emergency car gear, first aid kits, fire extinguishers, etc.
I will continue working with the red dot pistol I have. I will one day add a red dot to one of my revolvers. But...y'all just gotta forgive me for not jumping in with both feet. I still have doubts.
Reading this, I recalled a moment when I first tried the RDS. I was shocked at how unstable my sight picture was. I didn't have that issue with irons! Wellllll actually I did, I just didn't notice it. A little more work on the fundamentals and accepting the reality that you really do have an iron sight wobble area and I was doing fine.
AJ
US Veteran
Have reread your posts and do not see a Poll mentioned. Maybe it would put an end to all of this......
I have wasted money on worse thing......booze and women come to mind. At least if I had bought a RDS, Laser or an optic I could resell them and get part of my money back.
Bottom line is use whatever you want and makes your heart happy.
Does shouting in capital letter make you feel better. If so I am happy for you.
Let us just agree to disagree.
50 years ago I started a career where I carried a large heavy revolver for a living. Ten years later with a promotion and new assignment I carried a much smaller, lighter weapon. Getting a soft, cushion job was nice, ditching the big gun was even better.
In uniform is one thing, hiding a big Glock or Sig with RDS and a couple of extra magazines under your jacket is not exactly convenient or discreet. All us geezers have done our time. Now for us EDC might just mean slipping a DAO J frame into a pocket. 50 years worth of training with the same gun has distinct advantages.
Kind of hard to draw a gun with RDS out of your coat pocket. To say nothing of shooting said autoloader while it's in your pocket.
I like the idea of being low key, discreet and having a real big surprise when needed.
In uniform is one thing, hiding a big Glock or Sig with RDS and a couple of extra magazines under your jacket is not exactly convenient or discreet. All us geezers have done our time. Now for us EDC might just mean slipping a DAO J frame into a pocket. 50 years worth of training with the same gun has distinct advantages.
Kind of hard to draw a gun with RDS out of your coat pocket. To say nothing of shooting said autoloader while it's in your pocket.
I like the idea of being low key, discreet and having a real big surprise when needed.
AJ
US Veteran
Admittedly I have very little experience with RDS on handguns. Although I have a couple on carbines. I might love them if I tried them. But it all goes back to conceal-ability for me. I’m a pocket carrier usually. The RDS makes it more difficult.
And if one's "index" does not magically provide that when needed, what does one do then? Spray and pray? Ask for a moment in which to adjust one's soft body armor?
Your post describes EXACTLY why carrying a gun without usable iron sights is stupid unless one has already established that proper appearance of the dot will occur under all postures or circumstances, or at least under as many as should be expected from iron sights.
Those who post this objection do NOT do so from ignorance.
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Where exactly in my post did you see me write that iron sights are unnecessary or undesirable?
I'm also not sure why you put the word index in quotes followed by magically?
Is the concept of an index something foreign to you and do you believe it works "magically"?
This is a quick explanation of what an index is from Ben Stoeger who is one of the top 5 best IPSC/USPSA shooters in the world.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw2SmtiQsrA[/ame]
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Here's another video where again Ben Stoeger talks about the value of dot occlusion as a training tool to get one more target focused. Watch the demo where he is actually shooting. The dot is taped over and there is no front sight on that pistol.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7zj4ytcbas[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7zj4ytcbas[/ame]
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Pretty much what I posted for the poll thread.
I prefer RDO with irons. Best of both worlds.
The likelihood of EDC use at distance is probably low, but I shoot more RDO equipped than irons only nowadays.
Just staying with what I'm used to consistently seeing/using.
Training with a cover on the RDO is not a terrible idea.
I don't do it. I may need to consider some of that, IDK.
I prefer RDO with irons. Best of both worlds.
The likelihood of EDC use at distance is probably low, but I shoot more RDO equipped than irons only nowadays.
Just staying with what I'm used to consistently seeing/using.
Training with a cover on the RDO is not a terrible idea.
I don't do it. I may need to consider some of that, IDK.
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