Rastoff's Challenge II

Well, we had fun with the first one (still going by the way) so, I decided to ramp it up a little. One of the respondents in the first challenge sent me the Texas Concealed Handgun License Proficiency Demonstration Course of Fire which you can read here: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/LicenseRegistration/chlQualCourse.pdf So, I'm not going to write it here.


This time I videoed the whole thing:


Still learning how to do videos so, this is not that great and took hours to get finished and uploaded. One day I'll get this figured out.

Here's the results on the target:


The way this is scored is with the small "scoring" target in the upper left hand corner. This method gives 5 points for everything inside the 8 ring, 4 points for the 7 ring, 3 points for outside the 7, but still on the silhouette and 0 for anything not on the silhouette. So, my score is 250/250. I did drop one shot in the 8 ring, but the rest were in the 9 or better. Also, the test calls for a B-27, but I used a B-27E. The target I had is too short and not the right color. Oh well, I guess it will just have to do.

You'll notice that I didn't rush or try to be super fast. I shot this cold. The first shot you see me take was the first shot I took all day. The one hit in the 8 ring was actually the first shot of the pair in stage 2 part B from 7 yards. I guess I wasn't concentrating hard enough.

So, get out there and try this one. Post pics of your targets. I've attached my split times below.

My sympathies go out to our brethren in the East. The temp got to about 75°F today with a slight breeze. Maybe tomorrow will warm up a little.

I have no timer.

David

Don't have timer or pic. But do have the target from the last time I had to shoot the Texas CHL qual. (4/11/2009) I scored perfect. The class was at Tac Pro in Mingus, TX. tacproshootingcenter.com

- 9 in the 9 ring
- 12 in the blank ring between 9 and X
- 29 in the X

I was shooting my old Star PD loaded with CCI Blazer 230 TMJ. Holster was a custom made for me by my brother-in-law. Thanks Sonny!

Due to a good change in the law in 2013, we no longer have to shoot for renewals. And the whole renewal process is done on line, with a payment for vets of $25 vs. $70 standard fee. And if you are a vet, the CHL itself is now marked VETERAN, which is nice. Pretty smooth and easy process.

We got all the way up to 56* yesterday! Yeah, I was running around with no coat! Like the first challenge, I'll have to do this one too. But it may be a week or so before I can go to the range.

L8R,
Matt

FYI, note that this target is designed so that the shooter is trained to shoot FAR too low. The 10/10X should be centered about where the 8 is, extending up to about the bottom of the printed number "7", and down to about the bottom of the printed "9". It also does not have the head/neck target areas delineated.

David R said:

I have no timer.

David

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Do you have a smart phone?

moxie said:

Don't have timer or pic. But do have the target from the last time I had to shoot the Texas CHL qual.

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That's some decent shooting, but did you do it from the holster?

Doug M. said:

FYI, note that this target is designed so that the shooter is trained to shoot FAR too low.

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**Sigh** "The target is wrong" "The times aren't realistic" "It's too sunny out" For crying out loud, so what?

Yup , the "scoring in the upper corner" is the Training and Qualification scoring aka T&Q . The blank space between the 9 and the X. , is otherwise known as the Ten ring.

For a cpl decades the B-27 using the T&Q scoring was the overwhelming choice for LE and armed security training and qualifing. By the end of the Revolver Era , the FBI "Q" target aka Milk Bottle had started making inroads.

There was discussion in the traing community that the 5 pt area on the B-27 was too large , but the B"27 was a big improvement over the older Colt Suiloutte.

I had the concept that it would be more meaningful to tighten the T&Q scoring by one ring - ie X,10, 9 = 5pt , 8 = 4pt , etc . Or just use the Competion scoring where 10=10, 9=9 , etc , and a 50rd cof will be based upon 500pts .

Target selection has been kick around forever, and a lot comes to the priorities.

An Agency has an over riding goal of producing "qualified" warm bodies with minimized expense, meaning ammo costs , wages of qualifees while at range , and minimizing remeadial training ( or what passes for it) . Oh , and give an impression of a usefull level of actual skill.

Thoughtful people who want to increase actual usefull skills want a target with scoring areas more closely aproximating the actual vital/ incapacitating areas , and have them located more anotomically correctly. As a gov't roadblock to exercising a Fundamental Right , it should be - 3 feet , 1 round , no time limit , anywhere on the black outline of B-27 = pass.

Rastoff said:

**Sigh** "The target is wrong" "The times aren't realistic" "It's too sunny out" For crying out loud, so what?

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Really, it's practice. SO GET OUT AND SHOOT.


I was just reviewing smartphone apps for timers. Anyone have one they recommend?

Last time I shot to qualify, I scored 248/250. All of my shots were within the two inner rings, but one... it was down in the lower left of the silhouette where yours is stapled, wrist shot. I really think that shot came from the guy in the lane next to me.

Oh, low ready, as required on test... not from holster.

I'm not much on competitions or challenges but this looks like a good training tool.

I think this is almost as bad as Missouri's qualification test. (Sarcasm intended from here on.) We also use the B27 target but we shoot 20 shots at 7 yds. You have to put 15 of the 20 into the silhouette. You can use any hand gun and yes they make you shoot with your eyes open.

That's some decent shooting, but did you do it from the holster?

Thanks. Some yes, some no. Six years ago!

Pecos Bill said:

I'm not much on competitions or challenges but this looks like a good training tool.

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Exactly! This is not about who's better than who. It's about trigger time. I posted it as a "challenge" to entice people, to give them a standard to shoot for.

cyphertext said:

Last time I shot to qualify, I scored 248/250. All of my shots were within the two inner rings, but one... it was down in the lower left of the silhouette where yours is stapled, wrist shot. I really think that shot came from the guy in the lane next to me.

Oh, low ready, as required on test... not from holster.

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Yeah, during the actual qualification, you will be required to do it from the low ready. I do the same thing on my test. The main reason is safety. Many are very unsafe when presenting from the holster. So, unless I've trained them or know where they got their training, I require shooting from the low ready.

schgsd said:

I was just reviewing smartphone apps for timers. Anyone have one they recommend?

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Obviously, I have a timer so, I haven't used the phone. Still, there are many that are free or only a couple of dollars. From what I've heard, they work OK.

Doug M.,
My apologies for being surly. I just want to keep this on track as a training tool. Your comment is well taken.

This is very tempting. I downloaded the COF when it was posted in the other thread to use in the future.

The range I normally use is only 10 yards, but there's another range about an hour or so from me that goes to 25 yards with computerized turning targets. I'm pretty sure I could set them for the required time intervals. I've never used turning targets before so it should be a good learning experience. The only reactionary shooting I've done before is having an instructor yelling which target or which part of the target to hit.

Plus, I've always wanted to see what I can do with my 642 at 25 yards. I could do that while I'm there.

I can't afford to go to the range very often so I'm not sure when I'll be going, but I definitely want to try this challenge.

Just a little side note, since this is kind of my fault.

I like the way Rastoff took the test - it is certainly a realistic way to present the "problem". It's just not practical for most CHL candidates.

I shall elaborate.....:

The Texas CHL test is literally designed to be a test of handgun competency. It's not supposed to be a test of athletics, speed, combat proficiency, etc. Handgun competency, arguably, includes (i) the ability to load your own weapon (not as easy as it sounds - some people can't rack slides on pistols and some folks have great difficulty loading magazines - which is why we tell them to use revolvers), (ii) control your weapon, and (iii) use it with a certain modicum of accuracy.

Safety at the range is VERY important.

Bearing those things in mind.....

Safety first - I imagine that there very few folks reading this that cannot pass the Texas CHL shooting test whilst firing from the holster. The problem, however, is that only certain guns are safe to do that with. I cannot see Rastoff's gun clearly but I think it is a Glock. A Glock, or any revolver, or any Glock-similar, striker fired pistol, can be re-holstered with no particular effort. However, there is no way on this planet that we, as instructors, would ever permit novice shooters, and SO MANY CHL candidates are competent but still novices, to re-holster a loaded pistol without de-cocking it (and you shouldn't really be holstering a cocked pistol, anyway, unless it's cocked and locked a la a Colt 1911 or a Browning HP). I, personally, wouldn't do it with my traditional double action pistols so I certainly wouldn't permit it to be done by a novice. The point, therefore, is that for every shot taken by a competent novice, or every group of shots, the novice has to de-cock her/his pistol, re-holster, and then draw and fire, and then do it over.

That will take longer than you think, and in a large class that would be annoying - and that also virtually guarantees that some folks will fail the test, just from sheer nervousness, and some folks will definitely screw up the de-cocking and have an AD.

So, good job, Rastoff, but it's not a good plan for the "folks". If I try to take the challenge the way you did I'd use a revolver just to avoid the whole de-cocking bit or, maybe, a High Power, because pressing a safety on and off is no big deal for me.

As for the target - remember - competency is the key, not top notch special operations skill.

I am fairly certain that in the beginning of the CHL system in Texas the head and torso were combined into the 5 points. I could be wrong but I understood that they removed the head shots from the 5 point "ring" down to 3 points to discourage foolishness because the folks who were good with their guns would, as you might expect, try to get the best score on the hardest part of the target, or shoot "faces" into the target, etc. Again, safety is imperative, no tomfoolery should be permitted, and because you will be asked to scatter your shots in the 5 ring if you're that good. The instructor cannot score a target with a 5 inch gaping hole in it. It's pass or fail, not show off or shut up - so the instructor wants to see countable bullet holes, for the most part.

There are very few ranges in this neck of the woods who will permit drawing from the holster, anyway. Too risky, and almost every range has a table in front of the shooters so it becomes impractical from the standpoint of drawing and smacking guns into the table edges. Again, I really like the way Rastoff did it - but it's not every one of us who can access an open range as he did.

I admit it, though - I really wanna!!!!!!!!!!!

***GRJ***

I'm pretty confident I could pass this COF from low ready, but I'd really like to try it drawing from concealment both as a challenge and to add another defensive skill to practice. Hopefully my alternate range will allow it. I've never had a problem with it at my usual range, probably because I've never shot anything I wasn't supposed to.

ISCS Yoda said:

Just a little side note, since this is kind of my fault.

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Not your "fault", but you did provide the course of fire. That made my part easier.

ISCS Yoda said:

I like the way Rastoff took the test - it is certainly a realistic way to present the "problem". It's just not practical for most CHL candidates.

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I completely agree. I didn't quote everything you said for brevity's sake, but I will comment on all of it. Yes, the goal of the shooting in a concealed carry class is, and should be, more about competency with a handgun than ability to survive the zombie apocalypse. This is why my test is only 20 shots done without time. It's also why I stop at 10 yards. If I lengthened it to 15 I would have a lot of students fail. Not because they can't shoot, but because they are so nervous.

Neither do I allow shooting from the holster. The exception I make for that is if they have received training from me or a school I'm familiar with; Front Sight, Gunsight, Thunder Ranch are all schools I'd accept.

I know I sped up the film for time sake. Still, if you watch starting at 6:24 you'll see me re-holster. Notice that I do it in a very specific way and very deliberately.

Soon I will post a video on the 5 step presentation. This will demonstrate how to present your gun from the holster. If done properly, a table being in front of you shouldn't be an issue.

ISCS Yoda said:

I cannot see Rastoff's gun clearly but I think it is a Glock.

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A Glock? A GLOCK?!?! Can't see it clearly? Was the pic in the first challenge not clear enough? You wound me sir. That fine firearm is the design ordained by God Himself and executed by His prophet John Moses Browning. Namely the 1911 as interpreted by the current master pistol smith Ed Brown. To mistake it for a plastic Austrian nightmare is heresy at the least and pure blasphemy to those of us who know quality firearms. OK, I'm just kidding. Glock fans please don't send any more hate mail. Yes, I holster it in Condition 1 i.e. cocked and locked. If you listen closely, you can hear the click of the safety going on before I move to holster it.

ContinentalOp said:

I'm pretty confident I could pass this COF from low ready, but I'd really like to try it drawing from concealment both as a challenge and to add another defensive skill to practice.

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By all means do it from the low ready. Once you lean, and have time to practice the presentation, then try it that way.

Rastoff said:

By all means do it from the low ready. Once you lean, and have time to practice the presentation, then try it that way.

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I'm comfortable with drawing from concealment then firing. But I will consider your advice. Thanks.

I dug the video...thanks for putting it on high speed and entertaining us with some music.

My latest CCW pistol makes this look EASY.

20140528_200142_LLS by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

I was so eager to try this challenge I went to the range this morning. I had to go to a different range because my usual range is limited to 10yds. This alternate range has a 25yd max distance and programmable turning targets, so when doing the TX CHL COF I was able to program the targets to be exposed for the time specified for each string.

I didn't run it cold. Since I had the opportunity to try my 642 at 25yds I wanted to do that first. So I fired 10 rounds of SB-GDHP, 2-handed, standing, unsupported, to see what would happen. It wasn't pretty.



After that rousing start I proceeded to shoot the challenge. I decided to take Rastoff's advice and run the challenge as specified, starting from low ready. I wanted to focus on my marksmanship skills, such as they are, rather than draw mechanics. I shot the challenge using my 642 and PMC 132gr FMJ. And here's the result:



The only problem is that the target I used isn't the same as B27 specs, so when I got home I did some research and a little measuring.

B27 Specs
*8-ring: ~11.75" wide x ~17.5" tall
*7-ring: ~15.75" wide x ~23.5" tall

The B27 8-ring is the same height as my target's 8-ring but the same width as my target's 7-ring.

Here are a couple of pictures with a tape measure showing what the B27 7-ring would approximate on my target:





And a close up showing one shot just outside the B27 7-ring measurement:



So, if I measured everything correctly, I had 1 shot outside the B27 7-ring but on the silhouette, 2 shots in the 7-ring, and the rest in the 8-ring for a total score of 246/250, or 98.4%.

FYI, all of the shots outside the 9-ring were from 15yds. Today was the first time I'd fired my 642 past 10yds.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make sure I documented and shared everything. I suppose it would've been easier if I had just gotten some B27 targets.