Rastoff's Challenge II

[Doug M.]

**Sigh** "The target is wrong" "The times aren't realistic" "It's too sunny out" For crying out loud, so what?

*
Sorry for the late reply, but I don't recall seeing this before. My concern was that if one trains to do well on that target, one is not training to place shots where they need to be. When I start training with organizations that have worked hard to make/use targets that are anatomically valid, it was not an easy transition.I was not trying to mindlessly quibble.

 

[Rastoff]

It's all good Doug.

Your comments are not invalid. However, this is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a comprehensive self-defense training. It's just an exercise in shooting that uses the Texas CHL qualification.

Also, it is intended to reach the broadest range of shooters possible. The B-27 target is extremely common. So, it's readily available for every shooter. Also, many ranges don't allow the "anatomically correct" targets you're talking about.

If you like, you can draw a line horizontally across the target where the numbers are. Then keep all your shots inside the 8 ring and above the line. This will satisfy what you're saying.

Further, while a shot in the X on the B-27 may not be in the optimal spot, it will still stop most bad guys.

 

[Bob O]

Used a timer for the first time ever today.....definitely adds a new dimension to shooting....I like it a lot!!!

Rastoff, I printed out your results sheet and wrote my results on it. This course wouldn't have been nearly as fun without a timer.

Since my target stand is small and square, I had to fold the head portion of the B27 target over the top in order to be able to shoot the center. Here are some pics I took of the target before and after, and my results.

 

[Rastoff]

I love it. Excellent shooting. Good hits and faster than me (which is not hard to do ). And you scored 100%.

I think this challenge is easier than the first. Still, it gets you moving.

 

[Bob O]

Thanks Rastoff. Yes, easier than the first one and more fun.
With the timer, actually enjoyed it more and felt that I had made way better use of that 50 rounds and time spent as opposed to just going out and flat-blasting through a box of ammo.

 

[GaryS]

I buy my special targets at Walmart. They are white, round, 9" inches in diameter. They come in plastic packages of 70 and cost $3.94 plus tax.

I set them up at 25 feet and any round in the 9" diameter is scored a hit, any outside are scored as a miss.

Quibble about my criteria, but as someone pointed out, it's practice.

 

[Rastoff]

Since not many people are trying this challenge, let's explore something else; value of target shape.

Doug has brought up an interesting subject. He has said that the center of the B-27 target is not the optimal location for a defensive hit. I agree. In fact, I believe this target is a better representative of where a good stopping hit should be:

However, the question is, does it matter? What if I only use the paper plates GaryS suggests? does that compromise my ability to get a good hit on a bad guy? Or is it just the silhouette like the B-27 with the center X being too low that's bad? Or is it even bad?

 

[Bob O]

Maybe we should just shoot for the neck or head area in case the bad guy is wearing body armor?

Seriously now, I'd be happy with any hit to the torso, lower mid or upper, of a bad guy. If he doesn't go down in one or two shots and is still a threat, then I'll aim for the head.

Remember guys, you do not intend to kill in a self defense encounter. Your intent is just to stop the threat. If the bad guy happens to die as a result, too bad for him.

 

[jdesro1911]

I don't think it makes a bit of difference. The bad guys won't have neatly defined scoring rings drawn on them - either center chest or center sternum like the B-27.

I would think (hope) anybody carrying a firearm for self-defense would have enough knowledge to know where the best area on a human is to make the most effective hits.

I can't imagine anyone who finds themselves in a lethal encounter will be thinking to themselves "Well, the B-27 has the X-ring in the gut - so that means I should shoot this bad guy in the gut, too!" Pew, pew!!

It's just a target - maybe a little outdated, sure, but I certainly don't see it as being a detriment to self defense practice.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Question for Rastoff as the experienced, and Bob O as the beginning timer shooter.

I don't have and don't expect to acquire a timer in the near future, (old, fixed income guy), but my curiosity is stirred. What benefit does the timer bring to the table? I understand that getting off accurate shots in a timely manner is the goal in a defensive situation. But what else would I expect? I've never had any formal firearms training except in the National Guard way back in the day.

 

[Rastoff]

What benefit does the timer bring to the table?

Good question.

It adds a level of stress.

The one thing we can't simulate is a real situation. No matter how good the exercise, ultimately it isn't real. Therefore, you never know how you'll react when your life is on the line.

The timer adds a little urgency. It's not reality, but it is the least expensive way to add that urgency to your practice.

 

[jdesro1911]

Just to add my viewpoint as well - a timer is also another tool to help you measure your progress as a shooter.

Just like as in this challenge and the original challenge, if you shoot it a few times you will most likely notice your groups and your score on the targets getting better. Where the bullets hit on the target is a visual indication that you are improving. Or it can show if you need improvement in some areas (for instance - hits low on the target might indicate you are flinching or jerking the trigger).

A timer can be used in the same manner to help you improve your shooting. It's great if you can draw from the holster and get all your shots in the X-ring, but if it takes, say, 10 seconds to do that, are you as effective as you could be? Wouldn't it be better in a defensive situation if you could get those hits in a shorter period of time?

That's where the timer comes in - it is a tool to measure you progress as you work on gaining speed.

 

[Rastoff]

There is a balance between accuracy and speed.

In my self-defense classes we teach the acronym ASP. It stands for accuracy, speed and power. Working backwards, power is what you brought. You can't do anything about this. It is simply what you brought.

Then there is speed. If we can't shoot quickly, the bad guy will shoot us first. Speed comes with practice.

Accuracy is number one though. Anyone can miss quickly. A fast miss gets us nothing. Anyone can be relatively accurate if they take their time. Unfortunately, while you're getting lined up, they're shooting you; not good.

So, first be accurate, then be speedy. If you do both of those properly, power will handle itself.

Balance between speed and accuracy. If you fire two shots quickly and they are more than a fist apart, slow down. If they are really close to each other, speed up. Let the timer gauge your improvement as you keep your shots within a fist of each other, but get faster.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Thanks for the speedy replies. Maybe I'll request one for my birthday, and see if that works. Rastoff, I like the ASP training statement.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Hope to get a timer from a friend tomorrow and run it with my 642. If I don't post by Friday come threw the computer and kick me out to the range.

 

[swsig]

As promised, here are the results from the Rastoff's Challenge II for my SIG P250 subcompact .380. It's about the same size and weight as my Shield 9, but carries 12 rounds in a double stack mag. It has a very smooth double action trigger, and the low-recoil .380 round makes it easy to hold on target. The result: a tie with my Shield, and a perfect score of 250. Both targets are attached below.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Here's my attempt at the challenge.



(The rip at about 1:00 is from part of the log back stop bouncing back.) Can't get the photo to rotate in Imageshack.

Shot this drawing with my hand on the gun starting in my pocket for each string. I brought a timer but the battery was dead... I know. Should have spares. So I'm not sure of my times but pretty sure they were under as I tried to shoot at a fast pace.

Not happy with the group but 248/250 gives room for improvement.

Excuse time!

Shot this cold (per the rules) after not shooting since late May (do to weather/being busy.) and with my weak side hand as that's where the 642 gets carried as a BUG. (Did use both hands but my left was the "main".

 

[swsig]

Shot this cold (per the rules) after not shooting since late May (do to weather/being busy.) and with my weak side hand as that's where the 642 gets carried as a BUG. (Did use both hands but my left was the "main".

Weak side hand? Impressive!

 

[RSBH44]

I have the timer but unfortunately the only place that I have to shoot is my local gun club and they no longer allow human silhouette targets. I know, I know. It's time to find another club that does. If this is still going in a few weeks, I'll see if my buddy, who I'll be traveling to visit in a couple of weeks, wants to give it a go. He owns property that we can shoot on.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

I have the timer but unfortunately the only place that I have to shoot is my local gun club and they no longer allow human silhouette targets. I know, I know. It's time to find another club that does. If this is still going in a few weeks, I'll see if my buddy, who I'll be traveling to visit in a couple of weeks, wants to give it a go. He owns property that we can shoot on.

No, it's a practice target for bowling pin matches!