They’re so tired and unreliable going on 111 years?
Firearms instructor? Meh.
Firearms instructor? Meh.
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1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?
- Thread starter Puller
- Start date
Larry Vickers? Bleh! Just because he's ex-Delta Force, has written some books, and now a firearms instructor doesn't necessarily mean his opinion is gospel. His opinion is just that...his opinion.
When you take into consideration all those countless times when the 1911 has proven successful, Vickers is in the minority.
If the good ol' boys in Delta Force want to carry something different...fine. Most people don't face those types of situations on an everyday basis. Nine times out of ten situations that John Q. Public will find himself in, the 1911 will be more than sufficient.
I only own three 1911's and each one has performed flawlessly. I gave another one to my son-in-law who has used it extensively. He once told me, "Dad, I will never get rid of this gun!"
I think Larry Vickers is "blowing smoke." Of course, that's just my opinion...but I'm not ex-Delta Force.
When you take into consideration all those countless times when the 1911 has proven successful, Vickers is in the minority.
If the good ol' boys in Delta Force want to carry something different...fine. Most people don't face those types of situations on an everyday basis. Nine times out of ten situations that John Q. Public will find himself in, the 1911 will be more than sufficient.
I only own three 1911's and each one has performed flawlessly. I gave another one to my son-in-law who has used it extensively. He once told me, "Dad, I will never get rid of this gun!"
I think Larry Vickers is "blowing smoke." Of course, that's just my opinion...but I'm not ex-Delta Force.
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There is a reason the 1911 is 110 years old. It works.
Who died and left Larry Vickers Boss???????? He' just one man spouting his opnion..........Which has ZERO effect on the rest of the world. Suggest OP become and engine and not a caboose.
Quick quote: “Unless you have $3,500+ to spend on a well fitted and tuned 1911 as well as understand exactly what ammo it personally likes to feed & eat best then, just go buy a Glock!"
Okay, I understand he was speaking to students who have paid to take a defensive shooting class. I get that.
Here’s what I don’t get… why is it most threads on gun forums are always about “end of days” and fire fights and near death experiences?
I had thought that many here are like me… pick a gun to carry and then the next 35 guns I buy are all purely for the enjoyment of shooting.
1911’s are fantastic. I carry something else. For enjoyment on the range, ANYTHING may apply. And while I know that I can defend myself with a handgun, I’m a recreational shooter, I’m not an operator on an anti-terrorist team.
Okay, I understand he was speaking to students who have paid to take a defensive shooting class. I get that.
Here’s what I don’t get… why is it most threads on gun forums are always about “end of days” and fire fights and near death experiences?
I had thought that many here are like me… pick a gun to carry and then the next 35 guns I buy are all purely for the enjoyment of shooting.
1911’s are fantastic. I carry something else. For enjoyment on the range, ANYTHING may apply. And while I know that I can defend myself with a handgun, I’m a recreational shooter, I’m not an operator on an anti-terrorist team.
I've owned plenty of 1911s, and most of them have been pretty darn reliable (and never in the $3,500 range). None of them have ever been quite Glock 19 reliable, but the most reliable of them (Dan Wesson Specialist, Dan Wesson A2, Springer MC Operator, and a RIA GI model) were certainly reliable enough that I'd not hesitate to carry any of them.
It is also true that the 1911 is large, heavy, and low capacity. There are higher capacity options, more accurate options, safer options, lighter options, smaller options, and all manner of other improvements available with other pistol designs made in the last 110 years.
Vickers had a career where those improvements we have now could have made a real difference to him and his friends, and he (mostly) speaks with that in mind. There have been attempts to breathe new martial life into the 1911, the best examples that come to mind being the MEUSOC program and its eventual offspring the M45, with an honorable mention to things like the FBI's HRT 1911 program that got us the Springfield Professional (still want one), but eventually those programs always go quietly away and the groups with the options wind up Glock 19s or similar.
Vickers is right that the Glock 19 (or honestly plenty of other similar pistols) beat out the 1911 platform for martial and other serious uses, and I'm sure there are people on this forum for whom that the differences between the two could matter. For most of us, it really doesn't, just as the difference between revolvers and autos will never matter to most of us. It's ok to carry or love whatever guns we want while recognizing that time marches on.
It is also true that the 1911 is large, heavy, and low capacity. There are higher capacity options, more accurate options, safer options, lighter options, smaller options, and all manner of other improvements available with other pistol designs made in the last 110 years.
Vickers had a career where those improvements we have now could have made a real difference to him and his friends, and he (mostly) speaks with that in mind. There have been attempts to breathe new martial life into the 1911, the best examples that come to mind being the MEUSOC program and its eventual offspring the M45, with an honorable mention to things like the FBI's HRT 1911 program that got us the Springfield Professional (still want one), but eventually those programs always go quietly away and the groups with the options wind up Glock 19s or similar.
Vickers is right that the Glock 19 (or honestly plenty of other similar pistols) beat out the 1911 platform for martial and other serious uses, and I'm sure there are people on this forum for whom that the differences between the two could matter. For most of us, it really doesn't, just as the difference between revolvers and autos will never matter to most of us. It's ok to carry or love whatever guns we want while recognizing that time marches on.
outta_ammo
Member
Tlhih do parha' yol.
Live long and perspire Puller.
Live long and perspire Puller.
There again just spouting your opinion. Since when does one need elevendy dozen rounds to end a gun fight? Ever been in a gun fight. Tell us about it.
And fact is lots of us still carry revolvers.......And the only hold SIX ROUNDS.
Vickers is an interesting guy. One can go to Wilson Combat for a Larry Vickers 1911. Great gun. He has a company that sells parts for Glocks or you can buy a special edition Larry Vickers model Glock. This same thread could be about carrying revolvers. Your j-frame only holds 5 rounds and is antiquated, blah,blah. But it’s better than no gun or one you are unfamiliar with. And the reality is that God willing, no one on this forum will be in a shootout in 2022. But if any of you are, hopefully you will have a gun that you’ve practiced with, had training, and are successful.
I must admit the irony that I carry a Vickers Tactical Master Class 1911 yet he said this.
That said, I have kept up with Larry Vickers in his teachings and training and without context yes he says "buy a glock, the 1911 can be finicky" or words to that sentiment.
In context he adds that if you are someone who doesnt properly maintain your weapons or someone who doesnt want to get in depth cleaning them, keeping them well lubed...that a 1911 is not for you, which I 100% agree with.
A 1911, can be very picky (dont necessarily agree on the $3,500 price tag as mentined) but they require extra care, lube, cleaning. A Glock requires less. So I do agree with Larry, if you just want something easy which you dont have to keep up with...a Glock works......
Ill keep my 1911's
That said, I have kept up with Larry Vickers in his teachings and training and without context yes he says "buy a glock, the 1911 can be finicky" or words to that sentiment.
In context he adds that if you are someone who doesnt properly maintain your weapons or someone who doesnt want to get in depth cleaning them, keeping them well lubed...that a 1911 is not for you, which I 100% agree with.
A 1911, can be very picky (dont necessarily agree on the $3,500 price tag as mentined) but they require extra care, lube, cleaning. A Glock requires less. So I do agree with Larry, if you just want something easy which you dont have to keep up with...a Glock works......
Ill keep my 1911's
OK, now I’m ready
I have a GI 1911 (CMP) and a Colt GC Trophy. I don't shoot the CMP Remington/Colt because I have the Colt GCT. As far as I know the CMP 1911 hasn't been fired since the arsenal rebuild. Don't know when that was but chances are it was 60's-70's
I can tell you this because I also have an HK45. That's the new 45 ACP. It was developed for modern day military spec. It has polymer frame and will shoot any 45 acp ammo you want it to. The slide isn't cut for a RDS but there are smiths that can do that. It can attach a laser or light. That meets my needs because dots are for the range and comp, not SD.
If you don't own and and shoot an HK45 please don't offer any opinions about how it compares to a 1911. There's a hundred years of innovation there that can't be side stepped. Thanks.
I can tell you this because I also have an HK45. That's the new 45 ACP. It was developed for modern day military spec. It has polymer frame and will shoot any 45 acp ammo you want it to. The slide isn't cut for a RDS but there are smiths that can do that. It can attach a laser or light. That meets my needs because dots are for the range and comp, not SD.
If you don't own and and shoot an HK45 please don't offer any opinions about how it compares to a 1911. There's a hundred years of innovation there that can't be side stepped. Thanks.
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robvious
Member
as a trainer / teacher I see his point of view... Glocks require less training.. no trigger control knowledge required.. less reload issues... and they run... but have terrible grip ergonomics in my opinion.. I have been shooting 1911's since the mid 1970's when my father carried a Commander and competed with a 70 series Goldcup.. I have several but don't carry one... the 1911 requires a shooter's mentality.. not the tacticool summer camper attention span... simply the glock works for 90%... I live in the 10% and am fine that way...
I’ve shot and carried 1911’s for 30 years. I’ve had malfunctions. I’ve also had malfunctions with Glock’s, Sig’s, HK’s, Browning’s, as we all as Colt and S&W revolvers.
You shoot enough rounds through a gun and it will have malfunctions.
Vicker’s statements around the 1911 are related to maintaining and operating 1911’s. I have low end 1911’s and High-end. They all require some level of maintenance. Even my Sig 365 require a little TLC now and then.
You shoot enough rounds through a gun and it will have malfunctions.
Vicker’s statements around the 1911 are related to maintaining and operating 1911’s. I have low end 1911’s and High-end. They all require some level of maintenance. Even my Sig 365 require a little TLC now and then.
Let me add my two cents!
Has the ATF returned Vicker's machine gun collection yet?
I like the 1911 platform. In fact, my first handgun was a used Colt Mk IV Series 70, purchased in 1976 for $125. I still have that Colt, and I have yet to have a malfunction. I don't know how many 200gr SWCs I have fired in it. An issued 1911 saved my bacon in one of the first sandbox adventures. I have since added a Springfield Trophy Match for 2700 matches (purchased new in the late '90s). I have since added a Ruger SR1911CMD (45), and an ATI FX9 (commander, purchased as a 38 Super switch barrel project). None of these 1911s have even had a hiccup! Had I not won a P365, that Ruger would be my "go to" carry piece!
Yes, I do own a few Glocks which I use for GSSF matches. I am not a die hard Glock fanatic, but I am shooting them well enough in the matches where I can offset either my ammo cost or entry fees. Would I carry a Glock? I honestly don't know. Capacity is meaningless, since I live in a 10 round max state, but I'd rather get the job done with just 1 round as opposed to having to depend on follow-up shots!
Has the ATF returned Vicker's machine gun collection yet?
I like the 1911 platform. In fact, my first handgun was a used Colt Mk IV Series 70, purchased in 1976 for $125. I still have that Colt, and I have yet to have a malfunction. I don't know how many 200gr SWCs I have fired in it. An issued 1911 saved my bacon in one of the first sandbox adventures. I have since added a Springfield Trophy Match for 2700 matches (purchased new in the late '90s). I have since added a Ruger SR1911CMD (45), and an ATI FX9 (commander, purchased as a 38 Super switch barrel project). None of these 1911s have even had a hiccup! Had I not won a P365, that Ruger would be my "go to" carry piece!
Yes, I do own a few Glocks which I use for GSSF matches. I am not a die hard Glock fanatic, but I am shooting them well enough in the matches where I can offset either my ammo cost or entry fees. Would I carry a Glock? I honestly don't know. Capacity is meaningless, since I live in a 10 round max state, but I'd rather get the job done with just 1 round as opposed to having to depend on follow-up shots!
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31FordA
Member
My first pistol, back in 1995, was a brand new Colt M1991A-1. I have fired thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds thru it, including many hollow points, without a malfunction. The only “upgrades” I ever made were a steel mainspring housing and some Ahrends cocobolo grips.
Although I primarily carry a revolver, I also have complete confidence in my Colt 1911’s. I don’t carry my 1991 anymore because it has too much sentimental value, but I do carry my Colt Gunsite Pistol. The only upgrade I felt it needed was, once again, some Ahrends grips.
Although I primarily carry a revolver, I also have complete confidence in my Colt 1911’s. I don’t carry my 1991 anymore because it has too much sentimental value, but I do carry my Colt Gunsite Pistol. The only upgrade I felt it needed was, once again, some Ahrends grips.
JWintergreen
Member
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Spicy.....
I have an opinion about 1911's. Allow me to express myself. I'll always have one or two. I like them for the history and the touchstone to the past. They're iconic to say the least. As a modern day firearm for SD they lack some features that I think are necessary. If all you want is a range pistol it works, but for military or LE, it's out. Has been for awhile.
1911 is a horse/cavalry pistol. The only reason the US military kept it around for so long is they had millions of them in inventory left over from WW2. They still have 65k in US army crates that will go to the CMP......maybe.
Get one while congress still allows it. It's a piece of history just a like P08 Lugar or a SAA Colt.
1911 is a horse/cavalry pistol. The only reason the US military kept it around for so long is they had millions of them in inventory left over from WW2. They still have 65k in US army crates that will go to the CMP......maybe.
Get one while congress still allows it. It's a piece of history just a like P08 Lugar or a SAA Colt.
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