A Question for Our Vintage 1911 Experts

I suppose I could ask this question on a Colt forum, but I feel like I "know" more people on this forum. I know a little about old Colts, but don't have that really detailed knowledge that a lot of people here have.

So. I'm looking at a Colt 1911 Government commercial pistol with a serial number which indicates a 1920 manufacture (it's a C-prefix number), one of 6000 made that year. This 1911 has a Springfield barrel. I don't have a problem with a 95-year-old pistol having a non-Colt barrel, as long as it's not of modern manufacture.

What has me confused is that it has the "VP" in the inverted triangle proof mark (Verified Proof) on the left side of the trigger guard, but it's my understanding that this proof mark didn't come into use until 1937 or thereabouts. Is that right? It does not have the eagle head proof mark next to the mag release button.

And on the top of the frame by the disconnector, it has the "G" stamp which would seem to indicate the pistol was built as part of a government contract. Could it have been sent back to the factory to be refurbished for use in WWII? Could that be where the Springfield barrel comes in?

The right side of the slide has the "Colt Automatic Calibre .45" rollmark and the rampant colt.

The hammer is the flat side checkered hammer. Safety and slide stop are checkered.

There are no government markings on the pistol.

So this old pistol has me confused. Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Thanks for your time.

From what I've read, Colt commercial firearms have been using the "VP" stamp since ca. 1904. Firearms shipped to the military didn't get the "VP" until ca. 1937.

Dennis The B said:

From what I've read, Colt commercial firearms have been using the "VP" stamp since ca. 1904. Firearms shipped to the military didn't get the "VP" until ca. 1937.

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From what I know that is correct.
Jim

+1 for Dennis's post. I've seen ton of early 1911 commercial guns with the VP marking.

Thanks for all the responses. I guess I misread some of my source material...I'm sometimes easily confused.

WATCHDOG said:

I suppose I could ask this question on a Colt forum, but I feel like I "know" more people on this forum. I know a little about old Colts, but don't have that really detailed knowledge that a lot of people here have.

So. I'm looking at a Colt 1911 Government commercial pistol with a serial number which indicates a 1920 manufacture (it's a C-prefix number), one of 6000 made that year. This 1911 has a Springfield barrel. I don't have a problem with a 95-year-old pistol having a non-Colt barrel, as long as it's not of modern manufacture.

What has me confused is that it has the "VP" in the inverted triangle proof mark (Verified Proof) on the left side of the trigger guard, but it's my understanding that this proof mark didn't come into use until 1937 or thereabouts. Is that right? It does not have the eagle head proof mark next to the mag release button.

And on the top of the frame by the disconnector, it has the "G" stamp which would seem to indicate the pistol was built as part of a government contract. Could it have been sent back to the factory to be refurbished for use in WWII? Could that be where the Springfield barrel comes in?

The right side of the slide has the "Colt Automatic Calibre .45" rollmark and the rampant colt.

The hammer is the flat side checkered hammer. Safety and slide stop are checkered.

There are no government markings on the pistol.

So this old pistol has me confused.

Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Thanks for your time.

Click to expand...

I don't claim to be an "expert." I probably know enough to get myself in trouble. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

However, I do have an early 1911 Government Model (#C89870) that letters to a shipment date of April 2, 1917. Mine is all original.



This pistol has a high polish finish.

The Verified Proof mark is present on the left front of its trigger guard.

On top of the frame, behind the disconnector, it is stamped "S" (sales).

The right side of its slide has a two line rollmark:

COLT AUTOMATIC
CALIBRE 45

There is no rampant Colt stamp on its right side.

The left side of its slide has typical two line roll marks:

PATENTED APR. 20, 1897, SEPT. 9, 1902
DEC. 19, 1905, FEB. 14, 1911, AUG. 19, 1913

and

COLT'S PT. F.A. MFG. CO.
HARTFORD, CT. U.S.A.

The rampant colt is stamped on the left side behind the slide serrations.

Its hammer has a wide spur, checkered on top.

Behind the takedown pin the right side of the frame is stamped:

GOVERNMENT MODEL
C 89870

I have not done proper photographs of this pistol, but here are two I just snapped a few minutes ago.





I hope this helps you. It sounds to me that the one you are looking at might have some later parts (hammer, barrel) and other possible discrepancies. Good luck!

Curl

CptCurl said:

I don't claim to be an "expert." I probably know enough to get myself in trouble. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

However, I do have an early 1911 Government Model (#C89870) that letters to a shipment date of April 2, 1917. Mine is all original.

I have not done proper photographs of this pistol, but here are two I just snapped a few minutes ago.

I hope this helps you. It sounds to me that the one you are looking at might have some later parts (hammer, barrel) and other possible discrepancies. Good luck!

Curl

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Now that is a beautiful pistol! Thanks for your response and those photos!

The more I think about my question(s), the more I wonder what was I thinking regarding the VP mark. As many 1911s as I look at, and as many proof marks as I've seen, I have no idea why I thought its inclusion on the pistol I looked at was anything other than ordinary. I feel stupid. Must've been the beer.

I own one of the 6000...C1227XX. It is an unfired gun. The gentlemen that purchased it packed it in some kind of heavy grease and put it away. It was passed thru two family members and it came up for sale. The wooden grips were of course ruined by the grease. By the time I got it the grips were jet black and you could have almost bent them in half without breaking. It took me two weeks to get the grease off this gun with out damaging anything. All that said, mine has the VP triangle on the left trigger guard. It has the number 82 on the right side. It is almost exactly like the gun in the pictures posted above except for the location of the rampant colt. Mine has the horse between the patent dates and the company name/address on the left of the slide. As above posted, I don't believe your hammer is correct. Both parts could have been replaced with what was available at the time. Mine has a high polish beautiful blue.
I don't know what you can get this thing for, but I wouldn't let a hammer and barrel stop me.

msinc said:

I own one of the 6000...C1227XX. It is an unfired gun.

It is almost exactly like the gun in the pictures posted above except for the location of the rampant colt. Mine has the horse between the patent dates and the company name/address on the left of the slide.

***

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On the military 1911s the rampant colt was moved from behind the slide serrations to the more central position you mention in 1918. I think this coincided with the change from the brushed blue finish to the "Black Army" finish. From what you report I suppose this change of "pony" position carried over to the commercial production as well.

This position between the patent dates and the company info continued with military guns through Colt's WW2 production, but evidently not with commercial production. Here are two photographs of a Government Model made in 1931:







But here is how Colt marked their military production in 1943, which is more like the "Black Army" and like the roll mark you describe on your early post-WW1 Government Model:







Shortly after WW2 they moved everything around again. Here are the slide markings on a Government Model made in 1950:





These few examples hardly scratch the surface. 1911 pistols are truly delightful. They are tangible pieces of history.

Curl

That's interesting...I never really knew when they moved the "rampant colt" around but just like you say, it si in the middle on my 1918 year SN: 3461XX 1911. On the 1903/08 Hammerless Auto they have it on the back of the slide...I have a 32 and a 380 both from 1919/20.