Wilson Combat. Very nice. But...

Does front strap checkering make the gun more reliable or accurate? If you want to use the Valor instead of the Heritage add $350 to the price. I can buy them all day long for about $1450 shipped and transfer it for $20 which still makes it half of a Wilson CQB.

I am not saying that high end 1911s are not worth what they cost. I like them and own a few but what I am saying is in line with the OP that the difference between them and higher end production guns like a DW is not as large as we are lead to believe from the hype.

Look at the data from the Severns shootout. The Les Baer TRS outshot a stock Valor by .19" at 50 yards. I can get a stainless Valor for $1450 a Les Baer TRS costs $2,290.00. Is .19" worth the extra coin? The $1450 Valor outshot the Ed Brown by .6" and the Brown will set you back $2695.

2. Les Baer TRS 1.17"
3. Dan Wesson Valor 1.36"

First of all I was addressing the improper comparison being drawn. If you read carefully you'll note accuracy and reliability were not considerations in either post.

Second, Dave's "shootout" is worthless when selecting a manufacturer. He sampled one gun per maker.

CZ/DW makes a find production gun.

However, based on your criteria/logic, a SA GI would far supercede a CZ/DW in regards to ROI.

As for Baer, a PII can be had for $17??...only a couple hundy more than say a Valor with a degree of hand fitting unsurpassed by any other semi custom maker.

In the spirit of our posts..

A Baer I sent to Rob Schauland and Dave Severns
b419dba37854374f1cece14b9f2624f3_zpsbcf7af17.jpg
 
Not even remotely comparable to the Wislons, Ed Brown, or Les Baers you referred to in your earlier post.

It's a production line gun where the front strap isn't even checkered.

If you wish to attempt to draw a remote comparison to the manufacturers you noted, then it would be the Valor.
You're confusing me with the poster who drew the comparison; I pointed out your error in DW pricing -- WVSig is correct that DWs can be had, new, for $1100.

And you seem to have missed WVSig's point; it wasn't to call DWs and the semi-customs perfectly comparable, it was to note that a price difference of 300% didn't translate into a performance improvement of 300%, i.e., past a certain price point, you pay increasing amounts for smaller improvements. That's considered a given among 1911 aficionados.

Calling it a comparison is a misnomer -- it was a juxtaposition of an $1100 Heritage to a $3000 Wilson for an object lesson in diminishing returns despite increasing costs. It was apt and isn't better served using the Valor in place of the Heritage because as far as parts, build quality and function go, the $1100 Heritage and the street price $1900 Duty Treat Valor are identical, with the Valor receiving additions like checkering and a ferritic nitrocarburized finish that do not affect the end result of the firearm's performance.
 
WVSig, thank you for posting some of your customs, the chopped CCO looks very interesting. Your Hi Powers are a pleasant addition too. ;) I've always liked Bear pistols, they seem a good compromise in terms of price and performance relative to some other high end brands.
 
Someone said not enough pictures?

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Wilson Combat Classic in .38 Super. Fine gun, worth every penny I paid, to me, and that's all that matters.

I'm a far distance from even upper middle class, but if I have to parse every purchase based solely on need or perceived value of others, I'd be even poorer.
 
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You're confusing me with the poster who drew the comparison; I pointed out your error in DW pricing -- WVSig is correct that DWs can be had, new, for $1100.

And you seem to have missed WVSig's point; it wasn't to call DWs and the semi-customs perfectly comparable, it was to note that a price difference of 300% didn't translate into a performance improvement of 300%, i.e., past a certain price point, you pay increasing amounts for smaller improvements. That's considered a given among 1911 aficionados.

Calling it a comparison is a misnomer -- it was a juxtaposition of an $1100 Heritage to a $3000 Wilson for an object lesson in diminishing returns despite increasing costs. It was apt and isn't better served using the Valor in place of the Heritage because as far as parts, build quality and function go, the $1100 Heritage and the street price $1900 Duty Treat Valor are identical, with the Valor receiving additions like checkering and a ferritic nitrocarburized finish that do not affect the end result of the firearm's performance.

Actually I was drawing the inappropriate comparison between say a Herritage and the semi customs mentioned. The Valor would be a more appropriate comparison. To that end the price of the Valor is considerably more than $1,100. I consider FS grip enhancement an increase in overall performance as I do a BT vs a GS.

You'll note VWSig's post was not "performance" specific.

That's considered a given among 1911 aficionados.

This could not be further from reality.

It's the "aficionados" who know the increased value of a full house vs an assembly line gun by way of example.
 
The only comparisons between custom and production 1911's that make any sense is price and quality. All other comparisons are up to the shooter. Unless of course you intend to spend the rest of your life shooting 1911's from a bench rest. :eek:

dw_zpsi7mqfq5p.jpg


I bought this DW Heritage for several reasons. Even though I could have afforded a Wilson at the time I found that it wasn't necessary. The DW is quite accurate in my shaky hands. There NO MIM parts. And I feel I bought the best production gun made at a great price. My happiness is all that matters.
 
WVSig, thank you for posting some of your customs, the chopped CCO looks very interesting. Your Hi Powers are a pleasant addition too. ;) I've always liked Bear pistols, they seem a good compromise in terms of price and performance relative to some other high end brands.

The only complaint I have about the Baer pistols is the finish. It is a nonsense matte blue but it does not hold up well.
 
See again you are moving off the OP and the subject of this thread. We are not talking about revolvers or rifles we are talking about 1911s. We are talking about the difference between a $1100 gun and a $3000 pistol specifically 1911s. Like so many who "believe" in buying high end guns you assume way to much about those who do not view it the same way you do. Even those who own said guns you seem to be playing some sort of elitist you don't understand because your poor or ignorant card.

I have pistols in my collection that are bespoke custom guns. They cost me more than a DW and just south of what Wilson charges.

I own custom BHPs, have owned Gray Guns Sig Sauers, I own Les Baers etc... so your attempt to undermine me by saying I don't have the $$$ to spend or the desire for something better than straight out of the box is a red herring because we are not talking about what I do or do not pay for my guns we are talking about what you get for your $$$ when you buy a high end semi custom like a Les Baer.

Look at the Severns shootouts that I posted. In both cases a Dan Wesson costing about $1450 out shot a gun costing almost 100% more. In one case a Wilson in the other a Ed Brown. In your rifle example what you have posted might make sense be withing the context of 1911s it does not seem to be holding true. IMHO

Per Stirlings request here are some evidence I " can't afford or chooses not to upgrade to the next level." :rolleyes:

Custom Colt CCO by Wild West Guns


Good Lord Man! I wasn't denigrating You at all.

I give up!
 
I've been a 1911 addict for awhile now. I've learned that in each price range there is a gun that is the best bang for the buck.
My DW guns are the best production guns I've ever owned. Just under them is my SA Trophy Match and TRP. Colt's.............well.............
In the higher end guns I usually just go with a Les Baer. They aren't as pretty in finish as some others but they are always reliable and very accurate. More accurate (& reliable) than the Browns which are now gone and slightly more accurate than my new Wilson.
My RRA LM was very pretty but didn't run, went full auto and needed a lot of work just to be safe which I got zero help on from RRA, now it runs better and is as accurate as it was supposed to be.
This is my Wilson next to a LB P2 with the 1.5" option (yes, you can tell)

A pic of the LB guns together

and a pic of the latest LB

This last one has a Wilson slide stop installed because I was letting a friend help me break it in and she prefers that style of slide stop. The original LB part is now reinstalled.
 
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This is an interesting thread. Reminds me a lot of the bicycle world. I put a lot of miles on bicycles, both on the road and in the woods. Both my bikes were just over $2K each. They work awesome for me and do everything I need since I am not a racer. But the serious racers out there can spend upwards of $10K on a bike. They are not getting 5x the performance I am, but if you're serious, the few % improvement can be worth it. At the end of the day, if you can afford it and you want it, why not?
 
Actually I was drawing the inappropriate comparison between say a Herritage and the semi customs mentioned. The Valor would be a more appropriate comparison. To that end the price of the Valor is considerably more than $1,100.
Politely, no, and no. WVSig drew the juxtaposition for reasons previously stated; that he noted $1100 makes evident he was referring to the Heritage, which is the ideal example for the point he was making because of its price-to-performance ratio, being that it is in every way fundamentally a Valor. Its lower price brings into that much greater focus his point about diminishing returns next to the cost of semi-customs and full house.

You seem to think that acknowledging diminishing returns is a knock against the high end guns and it isn't; it's simply a metric noting that with 1911s, past a certain price point you have to pay more to squeeze small levels of increased reliability, longevity and aesthetics out of the platform.

And for the record, I've owned and shot 1911s from the lowest price point into the several thousands of dollars, and I've elected to stick with the high end ones because I like what they offer.

You did call into question the appropriateness of the connection, but based on a distortion of the original point.

I consider FS grip enhancement an increase in overall performance as I do a BT vs a GS.
Metrics can be quite personal and you're entitled to yours; I hardly think front strap checkering on a 1911 counts in the same league as barrel-to-bushing or linkage fit, or materials used for the frame and slide, or proper geometry of the ignition control parts. By comparison, a little extra grip up front seems to me welcomed but...secondary. I don't think slide top serrations are equal to a well-tuned trigger either. ;)

You'll note VWSig's post was not "performance" specific.
WVSig referred to "better", and neither you nor I can say precisely what he meant because we're not him and it wasn't elaborated upon, but I'm quite confident that he was referring to overall aspects of 1911 shooting, of which most would acknowledge "performance" -- things like accuracy, tuning, reliability and longevity -- are the chief components. I'd wager the post was indeed "performance" specific.

This could not be further from reality.

It's the "aficionados" who know the increased value of a full house vs an assembly line gun by way of example.
This is not what I said at all. If one has to change what's been stated in order to respond to it, perhaps reconsider the response.

No one has said that full house doesn't have increased value versus assembly line guns -- it's indisputable they do. The question was, and has always been, compared to cost differences, the assigning or how much extra value the full house (and semis) have next to best quality assembly line offerings. And yes, the aficionados do know that you have to pay exponentially more to get to subtle levels of refinement and improvement; that is, great as a $6000 Volkmann (to stick with the high end items) may or may not be, it isn't in every salient shooting respect twice the firearm that a $3000 Guncrafter Industries is.
 
Kind of like finally getting a date with the homecoming queen, and finding out she has dragon breath.
Probably more like finally getting a date with the homecoming queen and finding out that although she's a step up in every way, she's still human and could never be the perfect goddess of your dreams. ;)
 
Geeeesh guys.... I didn't realize saying that I thought the X-Tac was great in every respect would be 'fighting words!'. :D

I think RJJ summed up my sentiments better than I could.

Sometimes a grail - should just stay a grail.

Cheers.
 
Politely, no, and no. WVSig drew the juxtaposition for reasons previously stated; that he noted $1100 makes evident he was referring to the Heritage, which is the ideal example for the point he was making because of its price-to-performance ratio, being that it is in every way fundamentally a Valor. Its lower price brings into that much greater focus his point about diminishing returns next to the cost of semi-customs and full house.

You seem to think that acknowledging diminishing returns is a knock against the high end guns and it isn't; it's simply a metric noting that with 1911s, past a certain price point you have to pay more to squeeze small levels of increased reliability, longevity and aesthetics out of the platform.

And for the record, I've owned and shot 1911s from the lowest price point into the several thousands of dollars, and I've elected to stick with the high end ones because I like what they offer.

You did call into question the appropriateness of the connection, but based on a distortion of the original point.

Metrics can be quite personal and you're entitled to yours; I hardly think front strap checkering on a 1911 counts in the same league as barrel-to-bushing or linkage fit, or materials used for the frame and slide, or proper geometry of the ignition control parts. By comparison, a little extra grip up front seems to me welcomed but...secondary. I don't think slide top serrations are equal to a well-tuned trigger either. ;)

WVSig referred to "better", and neither you nor I can say precisely what he meant because we're not him and it wasn't elaborated upon, but I'm quite confident that he was referring to overall aspects of 1911 shooting, of which most would acknowledge "performance" -- things like accuracy, tuning, reliability and longevity -- are the chief components. I'd wager the post was indeed "performance" specific.

This is not what I said at all. If one has to change what's been stated in order to respond to it, perhaps reconsider the response.

No one has said that full house doesn't have increased value versus assembly line guns -- it's indisputable they do. The question was, and has always been, compared to cost differences, the assigning or how much extra value the full house (and semis) have next to best quality assembly line offerings. And yes, the aficionados do know that you have to pay exponentially more to get to subtle levels of refinement and improvement; that is, great as a $6000 Volkmann (to stick with the high end items) may or may not be, it isn't in every salient shooting respect twice the firearm that a $3000 Guncrafter Industries is.

It appears you're struggling with the fact that some do consider "nuances" found on certain full house guns do equate to a comparable ROI to the 1911 conosuer. As an aside I don't consider Luke Volkman a "top tier" smith. No diminished returns or as you put it "increasing amounts for smaller improvements"

I'll give you a specific example. When a smith creates a bit of a scoop on the top edge of a slide stop to create a bit of better purchase or indexes a custom textured plug with an oversized bushing in concert with a perfectly reversed crowned bbl it's art. Craftsmanship and attention to detail at the top echelons of any 1911 smith in the world.

In short not all 1911s are created equal just because they go bang.
 
It appears you're struggling with the fact that some do consider "nuances" found on certain full house guns do equate to a comparable ROI to the 1911 conosuer.
No struggle here -- you may have missed the "metrics can be quite personal" bit.

As an aside I don't consider Luke Volkman a "top tier" smith.
I've never handled his stuff, but that was hardly the point.

No diminished returns or as you put it "increasing amounts for smaller improvements"

I'll give you a specific example. When a smith creates a bit of a scoop on the top edge of a slide stop to create a bit of better purchase or indexes a custom textured plug with an oversized bushing in concert with a perfectly reversed crowned bbl it's art. Craftsmanship and attention to detail at the top echelons of any 1911 smith in the world.
I love those things too, but do think it's increasing amounts for smaller improvements. Different people are different. Circles on this is silly.

In short not all 1911s are created equal just because they go bang.
Again, no one has said anything like that in this thread, but if you enjoy knocking down straw men...
 
Was in a friends gun shop and since it was quiet he trotted out some high end 45's. some of them had price tags of almost 4K. while they were nice to look at and fit and finish were way beyond what a normal factory 45 would show they just didn't impress me. I have two 45's one is a 1943 Ithaca that belonged to a good friend and a WWII vet, the other is a tricked out 1911A1 made by Springfield Armory that I had paid $1200 for. When I first started shooting steel plate matches at out old range the Ithaca was all that I had at the time. Didn't place anywhere near the top but was having great fun. When I got the SA 45 scores went up but still no cigar. But I was having fun competing against other shooters. The high end pistols being talked about here are examples of the pistolsmiths art. Way too expensive for my taste. Which is going to hammer a nail better?, a twenty dollar hammer from Lowes or a custom one costing much more. They will both do the job for which they were designed for. Frank
 
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