Zimmer Shuetzen Rifle - Parlor Rifle

M1A · Sep 28, 2017

About 45 years ago my parents hung this lacquer sprayed zimmer shuetzen rifle as a decoration. I've had it 20 years leaning up against a stud with cleaning rods.
I was told it was used in German taverns shooting targets and drinking beer.
The targets were hunting animals of different sizes to depict different range distance.
I had thought one day I'll strip it and refinish it. Just wonder if it is worth it.
Seems like all is there and original. The number 48 is penciled inside the fore stock with a 28 stamped on the barrel underneath. Also stamped on the barrel is S. Ries.
The actual barrel is the last 8" of a 28" heavy barrel housing a 20" striking rod. The rifle is 45.5" overall. Set trigger. The caliber is .17.
A bullet is placed in the left side of the loading gate with a cap on the right. First pic in front of spring.
I don't know what the projectile looks like, the cap size used, or if it can be fired. No serial number, so probably not considered a firearm. More of a pellet gun.

M1A · Sep 28, 2017

Additional pics.

MNruss · Sep 28, 2017

I don't have an answer for you, but it looks like fun

If it were mine I couldn't resist making it work for at least a shot or two.

Regards

Russ

lebomm · Sep 28, 2017

I can't quite make out clearly how it works, but I bet that once the ignition and propellant systems are figured out, it would work pretty well with modern .177 pellets. Like Russ, I would simply HAVE to shoot it !

Larry

Andyd · Sep 29, 2017

The parlour rifles usually shot a lead ball, those were available in slightly different sizes. Most common was 4 mm. They came as loaded cartridges and as the brass cup with primer and a separate bullet. You will most likely need a 4.4 mm ball(4.5mm is .177"). It was called No.9 and is still being used in repeating air rifles, like the Anschütz 275 of which I attached a photo.

red9 · Sep 29, 2017

The correct term is zimmerstutzen, different from the scheutzen rifles they resemble.
Fascinating class of target rifle. Here is a godd overview of their design and operation. Enjoy.

Bob

Zimmerstutzen air rifles

weatherby · Sep 29, 2017

MNruss said:
I don't have an answer for you, but it looks like fun
If it were mine I couldn't resist making it work for at least a shot or two.

Regards

Russ

I almost agree Russ.....but then I think it would be like potato chips

walkinghorse · Sep 29, 2017

red9 said:
The correct term is zimmerstutzen, different from the scheutzen rifles they resemble.
Fascinating class of target rifle. Here is a godd overview of their design and operation. Enjoy.

Bob

Zimmerstutzen air rifles

Fascinating article!
Amazing how divergent 'shooting' has developed to support specific needs or instances over the years. Thanks for providing the source!

nachogrande · Sep 29, 2017

AND I THOUGHT DARTS WERE DANGEROUS IN THE HANDS OF ROWDY DRUNKS.

That would be one interesting/fun bar. The legal/liability ramifications TODAY are mind boggeling.

italiansport · Sep 29, 2017

An example made by AYDT(Haenel)in 8.15x44R caliber used in Schutzenfests. These were offhand rifle matches which have their origins in Germany but were shot elsewhere including the United States. I purchased this rifle from a relative of a vet who claimed it was used as a sniper rifle! (likely picked out of a pile of surrendered weapons in one of the towns we took over) It has been examined by several familiar with these and no one has seen an example with more elaborate engraving!
Jim

M1A · Sep 29, 2017

red9 said:
The correct term is zimmerstutzen, different from the scheutzen rifles they resemble.
Fascinating class of target rifle. Here is a godd overview of their design and operation. Enjoy.

Bob

Zimmerstutzen air rifles

Thanks. Best info I've seen, and I have been looking.
I think I have a winter project. Particularly with the chance of shooting in the basement.

6string · Sep 29, 2017

Hi,
Nice Zimmerstützen. You'll want to make sure about the chambering. Anything from 4mm to 4.5mm, with incremental variations, are commonly encountered!
There's also long and short chamberings.

Some of these were loaded with a small rimfire cartridge having only the primed case and seated round ball. (See picture of long & short versions.)
Others were used with a primed case and a separate round ball. A small tool would be used to breech seat the round ball, then the empty primed case would be chambered. This latter system, which imitated the breech seating method used in large bore schuetzen rifles, was generally considered to produce greater accuracy.
In either case, no propellant is used. That's why the chamber is part way up the barrel, and the actual functioning length is so short.
RWS still makes the self contained cartridges and the separate primed cases and round balls.
If you go looking for these, don't get the rimfire version confused with the 4mm centerfire cartridge known as the M20.
This latter cartridge is intended for gallery shooting pistol conversion units.

Here's a source:
http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/pdf/4mmzimm.pdf

I hope you get it shooting!

Best Regards,
Jim

M1A · Sep 29, 2017

I can't see if the 8" barrel is rifled. I ordered a .17 rod and brush to see if cleaning shows anything. Gun Scrubber didn't blow out any gunk.
I am curious if this zimmer shuetzen has any value. It looks old, but that can mean little.

6string · Sep 29, 2017

One of the biggest factors in determining value is simply having the complete rear sight!
The square heads for adjusting the sight and removing it were adjusted with a clock key. These keys come in many sizes and are easily available.
I do hope your bore cleans out well. Yes, they were always rifled!
Each barrel was drilled then cut rifled, usually with hand tools. That's why individual round lead balls in a wide range of incremental sizes worked best. Should your barrel have any light pitting, this could be lapped out by hand. Afterwards, one of the larger round ball sizes will likely work best.
Value is highly subjective with these old zimmerstutzens. Most people today are unaware of their accuracy and utility. The difficulty in finding shooting supplies is also a factor. They often have artistic value as is.
By the way, the usual target amongst serious shooters were very small bullseye targets. The inner 10 was basically a tiny dot!
Primarily, these were shot off-season by very serious rifle shooters. Some would have dedicated zimmerstutzens such as yours, while others might use one of the myriad conversion units for their large bore schuetzen rifle.
In any case, American values for a nice condition, complete zimmerstutzen tend to run around $800-1000, maybe a bit more for a mint example with tools/kit.

Egun.de is a good place to look for these. Here's a typical auction:
eGun

Yours could really benefit from a thorough going over. I'd start by removing that lacquer! Pure grain alcohol would be an ideal place to start. It will dissolve the dried shellac without hurting the nice look of the metal.
Take care when going after any rust that you don't lose that nice patina!

Enjoy!
Jim

italiansport · Sep 29, 2017

My Schutzenfest example pictured above came with two sights(one is boxed). They are both complex but the example (not pictured) had added magnification which I believe was allowed in matches under certain circumstances. The statement that a clock key is required to adjust them is correct.
Jim

C J · Sep 29, 2017

My previous landlord had a Emil Kerner & Sohn stalking rifle which is very similiar to what you have. There were a lot of rifle makers from the region of Germany known as the Suhl region. They used a lot of parts from a single source apparently. I spent a good bit of time doing research on those rifles for my landlord because he nearly got severely burned by a LGS owner he "thought" he could trust.

The value of those rifles can range into a very high number but those are models with a lot of engraving and special metal work. But even the plain models can run from $3000 to $3500 depending on condition of course and other factors. If it had a scope - they have to be hand fitted - it would be much more valuable.

The one my landlord had was chambered for .22 Hornet. I think that was probably something that was modified by someone from the original.

The guns were used for hunting and in competitions. They were pretty common in the US before WWI but all things German became pretty much unwanted starting with the first big war. By the second war people hid their rifles in the closet. I live near Cincinnati which has a large population of people with German heritage. I'm sure there are lots of those rifles around. The price has gone up in recent decades since the memory of the wars has faded.

These are things I read on the net so take it all with a grain of salt. I know I got to keep that rifle for about 6 months when my landlord traveled. I had a nice safe to keep his guns in. I shot it a few times. Very accurate and easy to shoot.

M1A · Sep 29, 2017

Clock key! Very understandable in the schwartzwald.
I had tried some sockets, including metric, and left the Kleins in the tool box.
Later I will take more pics of the sights. Looks complete. Just dusty.
I was not sure before, but now I am interested to pursue the project.
I went on the auction site. It's German. Couldn't help but put torpedo in the "los" box.
Got nothing for S. Ries.

Ivan the Butcher · Sep 29, 2017

The ammo is still made by RWS. They come in round tins of 100 (and used to come in 250's also) You will need to know if it is rimmed or rimless. (rimless ammo looks like a primer with a ball glued on and no extractor groove.) I have never seen a designation for rimfire or center fire, I think they are the same that small! Course of fire is 5 meters or 10 meters (fits well inside a Bier Haus!) The speed is sub-sonic so hearing protection isn't required or necessary!

Zimmer Shuetzen Rifle - Parlor Rifle

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