Two weeks ago I bought a new 1911 EGW trigger "set". Hammer, sear, disconnector and trigger. Locally I obtained an EZE-LAP fine hone and I ordered an Ed Brown 1911 sear jig and Arkansas stone from Brownells online.

The idea was to see if I could improve on my 1911 triggers, all of which are currently in the 4-6 Ib trigger pull range, without resorting to expensive gunsmithing.

While waiting for the jig and stone to arrive, I used the hone to smooth out the flats on the hammer, disconnector and sear flat sides. I also polished up the trigger bow both inside and out and the angled flats of the disconnector.

On Monday the stone and jig arrived in the post, but I did not have a spare 1911 sear pin, so I ordered one locally and used the stone, hone and jig spacer gauge to work on the hammer hooks. Today the sear pin arrived, so after work I sat down and spent a few minutes on the primary and secondary sear angles, first with the stone followed up with the hone. I made sure not to take too much of the material off, particularly the secondary angle, as I did not want too light a trigger.

After an early dinner I headed out to my shed where I stripped down my Kimber Stainless II 9mm. The original trigger had been set to the gun with the set screw, so rather than change it for the new non-adjustable trigger I spent a bit more time with the hone polishing the trigger bow.

Putting the pistol back together I found that while the trigger weight is a bit heavier than some competition guns I have tried this year, it was certainly a lot lighter than it had been beforehand. I estimate the trigger pull between 3 and 3 1/2 Ib, and very crisp.

To try it out I then set up my iTarget laser set which had also recently arrived. After a few practice runs I ended up shooting the attached 10 shot string at an "across room" distance of 4 long paces, about 4 meters/12 feet.

These were shot using the "bullseye" (free) setting on the iTarget app. I have purchased the seperate "quick draw" option to the app but I was more interested in evaluating the trigger pull and getting used both the the trigger weight and the iTarget system. The "Quick Draw" option will be explored over the weekend.

98/100 was not too shabby I thought.

Over the next few days I'll polish up the parts I removed from the Kimber, which has fired only about 600-750 rounds from new, and which are destined to go into my Springfield .45. The Springfield parts, except the trigger, were replaced at the beginning of the year, and while they have fired 1500-2000 rounds they will still be good enough to go into my spare Norinco Ranger, which has the worst trigger of the three.

Best off all if I screw up something I will still have the current parts, so no damage done.

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Interesting post. Tools are always a good investment.

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A republic if you can keep it

Congrats on your first bout with trigger work. You should not have to do much of anything like polishing internals on a 1911. It 's not like doing revolver work.

Personally, I don't see what if anything can be gleaned from "accuracy" testing of any type at a distance of 4 meters.

Bruce

Normally I’d agree with your 4 meter comments, but the target is scaled down to represent a greater distance. And the laser ‘hits’ are only about 2 mm in diameter while that 10 ring is under 20 mm (3/4”). That transposes to 3 1/2” at 16 meters (abt 17 1/2 yards), handheld indoors and in uneven light. It is a bit harder than it first seems.

I do a reasonable amount of training on a simulator for work and the way things are scaled it is almost easier shooting full sized targets on a live range at 15 meters and beyond.

Although I will admit that there is no recoil to worry about.

Great post overall, but your comment on the secondary sear angle being somehow tied to trigger pull weight leaves me doubting your understanding of the mechanics of the 1911 trigger.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

Just a little sear spring work can go a long way. Dress it with some fine-grit sandpaper, clean it, and then some very gentle adjustment makes a big difference.

No need to hone anything. A bit of work on the sear spring (straightening) and cut a coil off of the main spring will get you a very decent trigger pull (about 3 - 3.5 lbs.). Honing or stoning can ruin parts very easily. If you get an angle off the trigger will not work.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

1911 trigger work is addictive,you will keep changing and working to get that perfect trigger!

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

Congratulations having a great trigger is a HUGE part of making shooting as enjoyable as possible. It's expensive to use a gunsmith and I've rarely bought a gun from the factory that had an excellent trigger.

Great job - that's how you learn. The 1911 is a relatively straight forward affair and the Ed Brown Jig Kit is well worth the money if you plan on future 1911's. Each job will get easier and better too.

An extra fine set of Arkansas Stones in size 3/16 x 3/16 x 3" and / or 1/4" x 1/4" x 3" are also a good thing to have when working on guns. Check out Dan's below. They have good quality stones and honing oil. They are excellent for de-burring Trigger Channels in your 1911's. Not just for 1911's but for any gun and general GS work. I much prefer using Arkansas Stones for gun smithing - they cut slower so there is less of a chance to go to far and they cut much smoother than files. Plus, good quality stones are truly square for honing right angles. I use mine on all firearms. When ordering (if you do) I'd get a few of each since once you drop them they will crack. You can save the small pieces for other things, but it's nice to have the 3" lengths and they are small and brittle - just a heads up.

Arkansas Files - Dan's Whetstone

I have numerous 1911 gunsmithing resources, including many videos by AGI and Wilson Combat, along with the Jerry K. shop manuals. If you are just beginning, I would recommend seeking out resources such as these. PM me if you want. The worst thing a person can do is to start tinkering on a gun and making changes without fully understanding the action and design first.

For stones, I recommend getting the Spyderco 4pc ceramic file set. They will not degrade or round the edges like regular stones, and they are a lot cheaper, $45 for the 4pc set on Amazon when I purchased. Technology has changed things and I no longer use Arkansas or India stones that much anymore. Once you start really putting the stones to use, you will see what I mean about degradation.

Just one comment. For me personally, I will not carry any firearm with a trigger pull less than 4 1/2 - 5 lbs. The danger of an accidental discharge under stress is too great. In fact, 3 1/2 lbs is too light to be usable in NRA Bullseye competition. For all of you that feel competent with 3 or 3 1/2 lb triggers I applaud you, just be careful.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

These particular ceramic stones sold by Brownells are very high quality. They have precision ground sides and very sharp 90 degree corners. They are perfect for use with jigs, are the proper length, and give a very clean, highly polished mirror finish on engagement surfaces. The black stone is medium fine and the white is extra fine. A great investment, and if properly cared for, will last a long, long time.

BROWNELLS 6" X 1/2" X 1/2" CERAMIC STONES | Brownells

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Actually a 3 1/2lb trigger is legal in NRA 2700 as long as it's a 45 . It must however be able to pickup a 3 1/2lb weight without the hammer falling . 4 1/2lbs for EIC hardball . Personally I'd scrap or trade off the Kimber internals .

Buy a trigger pull gauge rather than guessing.

For safety and reliability, the springs should be at factory specs.

The secondary angle itself does not effect the trigger weight. The secondary angle reduces trigger creep. Taking too much material off the sear with the secondary angle however reduces the remaining surface area of the sear and the contact the sear has with the hammer. The less contact between the sear and the trigger will effect trigger weight. Take off too much off with the secondary angle and the trigger becomes unsafe due to insufficient surface area contact between the sear and trigger hooks.

Straighten the sear spring too much and there is insufficient pressure on the sear which can lead to slam firing. I know. It has happened to me. The difference between lightening the trigger by pulling on the spring and a slam fire is minimal.

All of my sear springs are fitted with the disconnector and sear leaves left as factory. I may add some tension to the grip safety leaf by bending it slightly outwards if I feel it is a bit light. (I like a very positive grip safety pressure, None of this "just touching the grip moves the safety lever" stuff for me).

Cutting spring coils too has pitfalls. Springs need to be a certain length and tension to work correctly. Cut the coils and you reduce both this length and tension. If you must change spring tension then fit a weaker powered spring. I have fitted Wollf ribbed main springs and 12/13 Ib trigger return springs to my S&W revolvers. I would never bend or cut these or any other spring on a gun.

My pistols are for range use only. For a carry gun there can be some very serious liability issues of springs are cut or bent away from factory specs if it is used is a defensive shooting. For any carry pistol it should be either factory or have work performed by a competent and preferably recognised gunsmith.

For a carry gun I would agree that 4 1/2 - 5 Ib is desirable. That is what Kimber advertise the Stainless Target II as having from the factory. Were it to be a carry gun I would have left it alone.

I live in a jurisdiction where carry for defence is not allowed. Outside of my work I am only allowed to shoot pistols on an approved target range either in practice or competition.

Some of the 1911's and Shadow (CZ clones) I have tried over the past year have triggers as low as 2 Ib. One competitor at our recent IPSC Nationals had sandpapered his 1911 sear and trigger to the point that en exceedingly light pull, hardly more than a touch, allowed the hammer to fall. Personally I didn't like it but he, and a few others, see no problems with triggers this light on their pistols.

Each to their own preferences.

Quote:


Originally Posted by D Brown View Post

Great post overall, but your comment on the secondary sear angle being somehow tied to trigger pull weight leaves me doubting your understanding of the mechanics of the 1911 trigger.



Nope: Still not right. The secondary sear angle is cut to clear the sear notch on the hammer and prevent damage to that critical surface.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

The stones sold by Brownell's are good stones - no argument there. I have had them for many years and do use them. The Arkansas Stones I was making reference to are smaller (3/16 square and 1/4" square), finer and get into places the Brownell's Stones can not. The small Arkansas are super useful when doing fine and critical work. They are agile enough to use on S&W Cylinder Ratchets and Notches to remove fine burrs without touching anything unintended. They fit in a 1911 trigger Track perfectly and you won't chance removing too much as they cut very very slowly and smoothly.

I also use Arkansas "mini-stones (or files as Dan's refer to them) to do the final dressing on Bubba'd screw heads (just before polishing on a wheel) when I restore them. It allows complete control of exactly what you want to stone and leaves other parts clean. These little A. S's are one of my most used GS-ing tools. Since I am not a professional and not doing this for a profit, I don't care how long it takes - I just want the best job I am capable of even if it takes longer.

PS: Since they are so fine it is critical to clean them out with Honing Oil after using them. This in turn keeps them clean and cutting properly. This also applies to all Stones IMO.

I have no information on your experience and/or qualifications with the 1911 trigger so unlike your first post I will refrain from any comments on your knowledge base regarding the subject.

However there is a plethora of opinion, assumption and unbiased theory that becomes "fact" in the world due to endless repetition by those who know no better. In the parlance of todays information availability this is often called "alternative facts".

Having been in a strictly provable fact based profession for over three decades, I made sure I did my research (not a quick google search either) on 1911 triggers before I even ordered the Brownells jig and stones. Here are some of the well established facts about the secondary angle that I found.

- The original John M Browning drawings for the 1911 trigger had no secondary angle.

- Early gunsmithing attempts to improve the 1911 trigger cut the secondary angle into the hammer hooks. When the softer hammer steels of the time lead to wear and unsafe triggers the secondary angle was moved to the sear.

- There are still very many "drop in" replacement sears that do not come with the secondary angle.

- Compared to the common "glass break" 1911 trigger the "rolling' 1911 trigger preferred by bullseye shooters, where there is a noticeable amount of "roll" leading to a "surprise trigger break" (often erroneously referred to as "creep") as the primary angle moves against the hammer hook face, has no secondary angle.

- The Ed Brown 1911 "Match" sear has no secondary angle as is designed to be used without one (by bullseye shooters and those who prefer the "rolling" trigger).

- Ed Brown, who has probably forgotten more about 1911 triggers than many will ever know, states in his instructions for his 1911 sear jig that the cut of the secondary angle is to reduce creep. I believe him over some "expert" whose credentials cannot be established.

- Even so called 'expert" gunsmiths, (often self designated "experts" promoting their own businesses and interests) can disagree on the angle and the depth of secondary angle that should be placed on the sear. The commonly accepted angle is 45º but anything from 40º-55º appears acceptable. And the amount of depth of the secondary angle across the face of the primary ranges from 25%-50% with 1/3 (33%) being the norm.

Now, while not alleging that my understanding off the secondary angle is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, my understanding is based on my research. Not common theory.

As to your "sear notch on the hammer" don't you mean the hammer hooks?

If you can point me to any recognised authoritative 1911 expert who states the purpose of the secondary sear is to clear the hammer hooks feel free to post here, or even PM me with the information.

I am always willing to learn from a recognised and authoritative source.

You're exactly right. You have no information on my qualifications/experience with the 1911 trigger because I didn't volunteer that information. When I originally posted, I stated your original post was quite good overall with exception of a lack of understanding of the purpose of the secondary sear angle. Nothing you've posted since has done anything to convince me my original conclusion was out of line. I think I'm done with this discussion. Maybe some day, in another 35 years or so, you'll have enough experience with the 1911 where we can discuss concepts on a peer to peer level.

Best of luck.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

I’m out of practice on 1911 trigger work, but I remember a little.

I'll remove what I just wrote and simply say: There is still some art to 1911 trigger work with each practitioner having his own ideas of the best method and terminology.

For me, e.g., adjusting the sear spring is a given. I prefer a full power 23 lb. main spring because Armand said so, but cutting coils there is OK.

Two points:

Not mentioned, unless I’m missing it, but surely you have … After changes to the hammer and sear, grip and thumb safety function must me checked. A new thumb safety is sometimes required.

The “tink” check is the minimum, but best to check visually that the thumb safety holds the sear with no movement. Look at the engagement with the grip safety removed, and with a Gold Cup style half-cock notch, you can see the sear looking down into the frame.

A special note with Kimbers: At one time, if not still, Kimber warned against removing the trigger stop screw or using a trigger without one because it could cause doubling and full auto fire. THAT caused a loud “HUH?” and a lot of head scratching before those in the discussion figured out that Kimber cut away the secondary trigger stop surface on their grip safeties. Without a trigger stop screw, the trigger can move too far and lift the sear spring off the sear. A simple way to confirm that is to view the action with the thumb safety removed.

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Kiwi,

Jack Weigand makes some good points in this BenchTalk article from Brownells. Like most articles from Brownells, the verbage is designed not only to provide information, but to sell products, so you have to "throw out the bones", so to speak, and use what works for you. Obviously, the article is not talking about a service or carry gun when it references a "2.5 pound trigger" in the title, but the descriptions and techniques are the same when in pursuit of a slightly heavier (and safer) end result.

Jack describes the procedure for prepping each of the major components; the hammer, disconnector, sear, and the sear spring. This article of course, is limited in scope, and is only one source of information....but it's source (Weigand) has a lot of experience. Some of the information is very good. Kuhnhausen's book on the 1911 is also a good resource.

As you accumulate experience, tools, stones and jigs, I can offer a couple of pieces of advice after 40+ years of work on these machines..... purchase the very best, highest quality tools you can afford, and never compromise on either the quality of the replacement internal parts you select, or the key importance of safety in the final result.

2-1/2 lb. Trigger Pull | Brownells - Firearms, Reloading Supplies, Gunsmithing Tools, Gun Parts and Accessories

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

I don't have any experience with 1911 trigger work. It must really be exciting to have mastered the unbelievable complexity of a trigger mechanism. I am in awe of your amazing talents. Do you think in 5 years I might have enough experience in loading a magazine to discuss the various aspects of it with you? I suppose it would take quite a lot of study and practice. I cannot wait for the opportunity to bask in your glow.

So a guy walks into the Vatican and tells the Pope about meeting Jesus down on Main Street... What's the difference between them? One has spent a lifetime dedicated to religion and the other has had only a recent positive and moving experience. There's nothing wrong with either.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

This past weekend I competed in a two day IPSC event (Classic Division) with my Kimber 9mm. One of the other Classic shooters is a Master grade shooter. A tool and die maker by trade he is known as a very good 1911 pistolsmith, one of only 3 in this country that my shooting mentor will allow to work on his own 1911’s.

I asked him to try my pistol and advise me on any further work needed.

Apart from replacing the currently standard (22-24Ib) mainspring with a 17/18 Ib one and adjusting the trigger overtravel to allow a faster reset (he let me try his gun to see how he sets his own up) he felt the trigger was pretty good. He said he would not alter it at all if he was shooting it.

I felt that I have done a reasonably good job on the pistol to date. The replacement mainsprings for all three of my 1911’s were ordered from my regular supplier by phone a few minutes later and should arrive in the next day or two. I’ll work on reducing the trigger overtravel when I have a few hours to spare after next week as it will involve breaking the set screw’s loctite bond, which I don’t want to do in a hurry.