Shed light on Rollin White

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Rollin White .32 rimfire single shot.
Yes it's not a S&W however some were sold by S&W and some of Rollin White were stamped made for Smith & Wesson.


In various books the manufacturing numbers produced are listed at 3000. Yet the highest serial number I found online was 3 digits.
Pictured is one of mine, serial #861

In various books they list the .32 in 3" & 5" barrel lengths. I think this could be an error with my research indicating the .32 was only made in 3" and the .38 was 5".

Anyone have or seen a .32 single shot with a four digit number?

Anyone have or know off a .32 with a 5" barrel?
 

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Rollin White

Production estimates can be way off from a general research reference book. Detailed research often uncovers a more accurate estimate based on surviving examples found and documented.

I’ve never seen a long barrel 32. I’ve only seen one 38 and it had a long barrel with a ridiculous price tag on it.

I’ve watched these over the years and for some reason there doesn’t seem to be a lot of collector/ market interest. I don’t know why.

I’m not really fond of Rollin White. I don’t think there is much of a following.

Murph
 
Production estimates can be way off from a general research reference book. Detailed research often uncovers a more accurate estimate based on surviving examples found and documented.

I’ve never seen a long barrel 32. I’ve only seen one 38 and it had a long barrel with a ridiculous price tag on it.

I’ve watched these over the years and for some reason there doesn’t seem to be a lot of collector/ market interest. I don’t know why.

I’m not really fond of Rollin White. I don’t think there is much of a following.

Murph

Yeahhh, Rollin White ought to have just said "Okay, I want a Royalty of 1 Cent for every 1/10 of an inch and fraction there-of, of Cartridge diameter, for each chamber, whatever Arm, and, 1 Cent per hundred for every 1/10th of an inch diameter of the Shell, for whatever Ammunition, no 'buy in'...just go for the Gusto and do not cheat me."

This way, his Royalty for a five shot .22 would have been 5 x 2 Cents or .11 Cents, and his royalty for a Box of fifty .22 Cartridges would have been 1.1 Cents.

For a six shot Revolver "44" ( Shell diameter of say .457), his Royalty would have been 6 x 4.57 Cents, or 27.42 Cents...and his Royalty for a Box of fifty Cartridges would have been 2.28 Cents.

And everyone would have loved him, no hardship on anyone, he'd have gotten rich, and everyone would have had fun right from the get go with a much sooner start...and MUCH higher production of more Revolvers by more Makers.

The way he played it though, was no good...he was too greedy, and too hard headed..he was no fun for anyone!


Oh well...
 
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Rollin White owned the patent for bored through cylinders. He licensed S&W to use it for a license fee and royalties. White made guns under his patent and sold them to S&W. Later he sold his manufacturing facility to Lowell Arms Co which continued making guns using White's patent. Other gun makers were aslo making guns with bored through cylinders and S&W sued them all and won. All their revolvers that hadn't been sold had to be marked made for S&W.
 
I suspect that most people criticizing Rollin White know nothing of the man. Hindsight is always 20/20 and its easy to spout off what he "should have" done.

When I started my thesis research in 2014, my intention was to write about Rollin White—his life, his work, and how he got entangled in the patent lawsuits that ultimately ruined him. I spent over a year intensely researching him before pivoting my writing to the Model 1. I won't write a long treatise about him here (since I still intend to write and publish this), but suffice to say that he was a bit of a country bumpkin playing in a world of well-heeled capitalists that didn't give a damn about him or his well-being. In fact, one might even suggest that D. B. Wesson knew exactly how to play White, and that he deliberately set White up to take the fall. Wesson was a veteran of gun related lawsuits, having been through the wringer himself some years prior.

Insomuch as the Rollin White Arms Company single shot pistols are concerned: I actually wondered for many years if Rollin White had anything to do with the arms company that bore his name. I wasn't the only person that wondered this: I have a period newspaper article, published shortly after the company was incorporated, wondering the exact same question. Again: in the context of a guy that was probably pretty naive about how the corporate world worked, it's reasonable to speculate that he may not have known what was going on, and that others may have been looking to exploit his name. In any event, he did end up becoming a shareholder of the company, but he was never listed as one of its principals. Nor do I have any record of his involvement after the Rollin White Arms Company reincorporated as the Lowell Arms Company.

But in any event, the single shot pistol remains something of an oddity, with limited appeal to those that research and collect the early cartridge load revolvers. If there was more quality material published about Rollin White and the Rollin White Arms Company, then I suspect the interest in and value of these guns would rise. But as things stand right now, the existing literature doesn't tell this story nearly as accurately as it should be told, and I think a lot of gun owners have a jaundiced view of Rollin as a result.

And as for production volumes: all we can do is speculate, since I've yet to come across any sort of day books that would give us something more empirical. My Rollin White single shot is serial number 36, so it won't be any help in determining the number produced. And I suspect Flayderman's number was a finger-in-the-wind guess ... probably as good of a guess as anyone can make without having a reasonable census of these guns to examine.

Mike
 
I suspect that most people criticizing Rollin White know nothing of the man. Hindsight is always 20/20 and its easy to spout off what he "should have" done.

I had not properly understood Rollin White's Patents - I had thought he had patented the Bored Through Cylinder AND the Metallic Cartridge which such a Cylinder would chamber.

As it happens, if we are to believe Wiki anyway, what he patented was a Paper Cartridge which merely happened to be for use with a bored through Cylinder, which used a Percussion Cap ( and he had no patent for any Metallic Cartridge in any way whatever ) which only incidentally occasioned him to then have the patent FOR the Bored Through Cylinder, which the Paper Cartridge with a Percussion Cap on a fixed Nipple above the open end of the Cylinder, was meant to be used with.

What a mess!

I do not see how he was every allowed or understood to have patented the Bored Through Cylinder at all, it already existed and was already pre-existing and in use in France with the Pin Fire Cartridges.

Here is what WIKI has to say anyway -

I did think I had recalled Mr. White having demanded of Colt 1 Million Dollars for use of his Patent, then he demanded twice that much, and that Colt refused.

Wiki relays this also.

Rollin White - Wikipedia
 
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As it happens, if we are to believe Wiki anyway, what he patented was a Paper Cartridge which merely happened to be for use with a bored through Cylinder, which used a Percussion Cap ( and he had no patent for any Metallic Cartridge in any way whatever ) which only incidentally occasioned him to then have the patent FOR the Bored Through Cylinder, which the Paper Cartridge with a Percussion Cap on a fixed Nipple above the open end of the Cylinder, was meant to be used with.

EXACTLY!

The gun that White patented was a mess. Several gunmakers tried to make a gun based on the patent (during the White v Allen suit), and what they came up with was an absolute danger to anyone in its vicinity. It's little wonder that Colt had no interest in the patent; nobody in their right mind would have tried to market that monstrosity.

Here is what Luke Wheelock had to say about test firing the Rollin White model:

I think that in shooting the cartridge through the barrel you would be liable to fire the others nine times out of ten. And in firing those I think it would be unsafe. It would be as liable to come back in the face. I don't see how a man could make the pistol so as to have it operate, in the first place: that is to shoot it. The face-plate in front,—if the other barrels explode, it must blow it to pieces.

Of course, nobody had any idea at the time that the bored through cylinder—practically a footnote in the patent—was the golden egg.

I do nt see how he was every allowed or understood to have patented the Bored Through Cylinder at all, it already existed and was in use in France with the Pin Fire Cartridges.

French patents are only enforceable in France, and Belgian patents are only enforceable in Belgium. The concept of international patent reciprocity came much, much later. And that was very much the gist of the White v Allen lawsuit: since revolvers in Europe already had bored through cylinders, was White's invention novel and deserving of a patent? When it was all said done the courts thought so ... but it was a Pyrrhic victory for White since the cost of defending the lawsuits had ruined him financially.

Here is what WIKI has to say anyway

The bit about offering the patent to Colt for $1M came much later; 1867, as I recall. And that would have to have come from D. B. Wesson, who still controlled the patent at that time. D. B. was probably gambling that the patent wouldn't get extended, so he figured he could shake Colt down for some cash late in the game. I'm not surprised that Colt didn't bite.

The wiki article about Rollin White makes some claims that I haven't been able to substantiate in my research, but I haven't had the time or inclination to edit it.

Mike
 
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Rollin White .32 rimfire single shot.
Yes it's not a S&W however some were sold by S&W and some of Rollin White were stamped made for Smith & Wesson.


In various books the manufacturing numbers produced are listed at 3000. Yet the highest serial number I found online was 3 digits.
Pictured is one of mine, serial #861

In various books they list the .32 in 3" & 5" barrel lengths. I think this could be an error with my research indicating the .32 was only made in 3" and the .38 was 5".

Anyone have or seen a .32 single shot with a four digit number?

Anyone have or know off a .32 with a 5" barrel?

How does one load and operate your Pistol?

I have seen small .22 Short Revolvers having Rollin White name on them in some way, and they were self explanitory as for loading and use.

Yours has a curious part on the side which I do not understand...so, I'd enjoy hearing about it..!
 
This is a really interesting thread. Could it have been that Smith & Wesson were better able to see the potential of the brass case, rimfire cartridge? If that were the case, it would make sense that they would jump on the bored through chamber while everyone else was still looking at it in the context of the cap and ball system.
 
Certainly you have just stated in a sentence what makes S&W historically significant. The weatherproof self contained cartridge used with the bored through cylinder is the technology that made cap and ball obsolete and the products from S&W in the 1850's are fundamentally the same as in modern revolvers. The improvements since the 1850s are just in details while the Rollin White story was part of the fundamentals.
 
This is a really interesting thread. Could it have been that Smith & Wesson were better able to see the potential of the brass case, rimfire cartridge? If that were the case, it would make sense that they would jump on the bored through chamber while everyone else was still looking at it in the context of the cap and ball system.

I think it was more a matter of who was somehow able to make a workable-enough deal with Mr. White.

Early Cartridges were not Brass Case, they were Copper.

Mr. White had no patent on Metallic Cartridges, his Patent was for a Paper Cartridge which was meant to be used with a bored through Cylinder so the paper Cartridge could be ignited at the rear, where a Percussion Cap on a Nipple hovering above the wide open rear of the Cylinder would ignite the rear of the Paper Cartridge.

This of course was complete idiocy, with no way to seal the Breech or Chamber, but it somehow accidentally ended up with his having patented the Bored Through Cylinder, which in his instance had nothing to do with Metallic Cartridges at all, nor were Metallic Cartridges shown or mentioned in his Patent.

So that, then, others wishing to produce Revolvers which would use Metallic Cartridges chambering in Bored Through Cylinders were forced to be extorted by his manner of offering his accidental Patent for the Bored Through Cylinder.
 
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Way beyond and opportunist

Without getting too deep into this mans history, simply because he was the ultimate opportunist with zero qualifications. His exploding pistol patent attested to this fact. These are documented quotes from history:

"The validity of this patent has been questioned for many years" It is believed that the Government has suffered inconvenience and embarrassment enough during the Civil War in consequence of the inability of manufacturers to use this patent and therefore save lives.

After years of royalties and lawsuits throughout the Civil War, Rollin White demanded an extension to his patent on the grounds that he was not sufficiently compensated for his invention! That's a documented fact. (Turns my stomach) Throughout the Civil War while people were dying he was busy in court suing any firm that manufactured a pistol to support the War effort having a bored through cylinder.

I'm not one to hero worship. Not for anyone! However, I do respect knowledge and "experience". A Civil War General definitely knew what he was talking about regarding the impact of superior weapons during war and the saving of lives.

Some might spout out BS regarding the Civil War General Grant? but he vetoed the Extension to Rollin Whites Patent. "Good for him" and "Good for our country" for sinking that opportunist who's only real invention was "The hand grenade pistol"!

When President Grant died "Millions of Americans" attended his funeral. How many people attended Rollin Whites funeral?

Murph
 
I think it was more a matter of who was somehow able to make a workable-enough deal with Mr. White.

But here's the thing ... we don't have any evidence that anyone else was trying to make a deal with Rollin White. To the contrary; nobody (at least, nobody that we know of) cared a wit about his patent until Horace Smith and D. B. Wesson came up with the rimfire cartridge that necessitated the bored through cylinder. And it was only the happenstance of that necessity that made White's patent worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.

Others then wishing to produce Revolvers which would use Metallic Cartridges were then forced to be extorted by his accidental Patent for the Bored Through Cylinder.

I disagree that it was extortion.

Whether or not the bored through cylinder was the substance of his patent gets into a much more complex discussion about what a patent actually covers. But at that time, at least, the courts ruled that the bored through cylinder was a part of the patent, and that he was eligible to the legal protections that the patent offered.

(I suspect that modern courts would have made the same ruling—at least, insomuch as the bored through cylinder was a part of his "novel" invention.)

It's worth noting here that American patent laws (which differed pretty substantially from the European laws at the time) were part of why America became such a technological and economic powerhouse in the 19th century. The nuances of patent law have ebbed and flowed over time, of course, but the gist remains the same: there has to be some intrinsic reward for innovation. In the case of a patent, the trade is pretty straightforward: in exchange for putting the information in the public domain, the patentee gets a short-term monopoly on that innovation.

After years of royalties and lawsuits throughout the Civil War, Rollin White demanded an extension to his patent on the grounds that he was not sufficiently compensated for his invention! That's a documented fact. (Turns my stomach) Throughout the Civil War while people were dying he was busy in court suing any firm that manufactured a pistol to support the War effort having a bored through cylinder.

The royalties were more than consumed by the lawsuits that Rollin White was contractually obligated to pursue. We can argue after-the-fact that he should have known better, but that's not a good basis of judgment. And lots of companies sought patent extensions, and were granted them. In that sense, White was a bit of an exception to the rule.

And people died plenty of dying during the Civil War with the cap-and-ball muskets that the military was using at the time. I don't know that I buy into the idea that allowing the armories to manufacture cartridge load revolvers would have sped up the war or reduced the carnage. It's an interesting debate (like the question of Truman's decision to bomb Japan in WW2), but again—it's not a good foundation on which to judge Rollin White without a much more nuanced examination of the context.

A Civil War General definitely knew what he was talking about regarding the impact of superior weapons during war and the saving of lives.

This is the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Ulysseus Grant was a complex character, and one whose historical legacy remains in flux. That's another topic for another day, but suffice to say that Grant's disdain for Rollin White (Smith & Wesson, really), and his veto of the patent extension (which was granted by the Congress) wades deeply into the politics of the time.

Let's not make the mistake of jumping to overly simplistic conclusions that fit our narratives.

Mike
 
Rollin White

Well Mike,
You definitely have performed more in depth research on the man. I can certainly respect that aspect and I will purchase a copy of your book once published?

However, until then I see him as someone who could have made a decent life for himself had he not pushed so hard in court. No matter what details or legal obligations were contained within the contract with Smith & Wesson? You never empty your bank account when you have the option to tuck and run with a sack full of cash! The concept of "ALL IN" is for losers! and that is "exactly" what he did. So close, even to a point of reconstituting the patent? Only to have the Bill Vetoed by the President. Ending his long and very costly legal fight with empty pockets.

Humanity with all our faults labels that a Loser!


Murph
 
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However, until then I see him as someone who could have made a decent life for himself had he not pushed so hard in court. No matter what details or legal obligations were contained within the contract with Smith & Wesson? You never empty your bank account when you have the option to tuck and run with a sack full of cash! The concept of "ALL IN" is for losers!

Silly motherhood statements aren't the hallmark of someone that's seriously engaged in historical scholarship. And I know you're capable of more than this; your work on the Baby Russian research seems solid.

Stop being so quick to pass judgment about people. Like most people, Rollin White was doing the best ... in a world of wealthy capitalists that didn't give a damn about peoples' well-being.

Mike
 
Gamblers

He was a big time gambler Mike,
The sound mind thinks before he spends his entire wealth. Empties his entire bank account on a huge gamble. The patent had already expired.

The sound person runs before he fights a giant. Unless he/she is certain of victory or see's death or total loss as being better than their present predicament. The military will introduce you to that aspect on life. It's called nothing to lose.

Perhaps his previous successes convinced him to go "All in" and fight the government? Crazy concept!

Murph
 
But here's the thing ... we don't have any evidence that anyone else was trying to make a deal with Rollin White. To the contrary; nobody (at least, nobody that we know of) cared a wit about his patent until Horace Smith and D. B. Wesson came up with the rimfire cartridge that necessitated the bored through cylinder. And it was only the happenstance of that necessity that made White's patent worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.



I disagree that it was extortion.

Whether or not the bored through cylinder was the substance of his patent gets into a much more complex discussion about what a patent actually covers. But at that time, at least, the courts ruled that the bored through cylinder was a part of the patent, and that he was eligible to the legal protections that the patent offered.

(I suspect that modern courts would have made the same ruling—at least, insomuch as the bored through cylinder was a part of his "novel" invention.)

It's worth noting here that American patent laws (which differed pretty substantially from the European laws at the time) were part of why America became such a technological and economic powerhouse in the 19th century. The nuances of patent law have ebbed and flowed over time, of course, but the gist remains the same: there has to be some intrinsic reward for innovation. In the case of a patent, the trade is pretty straightforward: in exchange for putting the information in the public domain, the patentee gets a short-term monopoly on that innovation.



The royalties were more than consumed by the lawsuits that Rollin White was contractually obligated to pursue. We can argue after-the-fact that he should have known better, but that's not a good basis of judgment. And lots of companies sought patent extensions, and were granted them. In that sense, White was a bit of an exception to the rule.

And people died plenty of dying during the Civil War with the cap-and-ball muskets that the military was using at the time. I don't know that I buy into the idea that allowing the armories to manufacture cartridge load revolvers would have sped up the war or reduced the carnage. It's an interesting debate (like the question of Truman's decision to bomb Japan in WW2), but again—it's not a good foundation on which to judge Rollin White without a much more nuanced examination of the context.



This is the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Ulysseus Grant was a complex character, and one whose historical legacy remains in flux. That's another topic for another day, but suffice to say that Grant's disdain for Rollin White (Smith & Wesson, really), and his veto of the patent extension (which was granted by the Congress) wades deeply into the politics of the time.

Let's not make the mistake of jumping to overly simplistic conclusions that fit our narratives.

Mike

Rollin White demanded 1 Million Dollars from Colt, then doubled it to 2 Million, to allow Colt to use the Patent for the Bored Through Cylinder.

Colt refused.
 
I always wondered why White was accepting this in my eyes bad deal. Thanks for the good info Mike.
I love the Rollin White patent. The infringement and al the circumvention. It is a very intresting field.

Here is my single shot with number 198
 

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