A surplus rifle question.

shocker · Apr 30, 2021

Quote from the 1973 Hornady manual.

"The post WWII importations of surplus Italian Model 91 rifles chambered for the 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge and their subsequent sale to American shooters at justifiably low prices has given wide distribution to this firearm.

In retrospect, the prices may not have been low enough. The action of the 6.5 mm Carcano is sloppy and lacks the extra margin of safety of the best military actions; the finish of the rifle is crude. Scope mounting is difficult and essentially not worth the effort."

LVSteve · Apr 30, 2021

shocker said:
Quote from the 1973 Hornady manual.

"The post WWII importations of surplus Italian Model 91 rifles chambered for the 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge and their subsequent sale to American shooters at justifiably low prices has given wide distribution to this firearm.

In retrospect, the prices may not have been low enough. The action of the 6.5 mm Carcano is sloppy and lacks the extra margin of safety of the best military actions; the finish of the rifle is crude. Scope mounting is difficult and essentially not worth the effort."

A quote dripping in good old US "not invented here" if I ever saw one.

Most milsurps are what they are, arms from a different age built for different needs and with the technology of the time. Let's not forget the proper name for the Carcano rifle in all its forms includes the date 1891. Predates CNC and Glock by a little bit, doncha think?

If you want a milsurps in readily available ammo, then get one of the Colombian Mausers converted to 30-06, or a Chilean 1912-61, converted to 7.62 NATO using surplus 03A3 barrel blanks. Several Mauser 98 derived rifles and carbines were built in common calibers during the 1950s, but because they are in those calibers they fetch proper money.

There are plenty of sacred cows in the milsurp world, the Mauser 98 being but one of them. Many can be reduced to hamburger with just cursory modern engineering analysis.

LVSteve · Apr 30, 2021

Steve912 said:
I had one for a bit. Mine may have been an exception, but it's
action made my Mosin feel like a fine Swiss watch, in comparison.

Nope, I have a couple and they do have an odd feel when working the bolt. Mind you, the worst has to be a refurbed MAS 36 I own. The repark makes the action feel like it's full of sand.

Some here may find the idea of a slick Mosin difficult to accept, but the Finnish worked examples with the polished cocking raceway are way smoother than a typical 1943 Izhevsk horror.

Narragansett · Apr 30, 2021

Well, they did not work out well for the Italians in the second world war. Having said that, I have never held or shot one. so I have no first hand knowledge of them, other than to say I have never heard a good comment about them

alwslate · Apr 30, 2021

sheepdawg said:
I've been a Mauser collector since you could buy them at Western Auto. I have a ton of love for large ring Mausers like the 98. To say the 98 is superior to a Swede small ring action is not a valid comparison. 98s are efficient brutes where as Swedes are works of art. 7.92x57 is a moose. 6.5X55 is a gazelle.

If it came to betting the swizzle stick collection on hitting a steel plate at 600 yards I'll take the Swede over any 98.

You are not alone in liking the Swedes. They have many fans, including Mike V. At least he did like them before he blew one up. I read about it in one of his articles in Rifle or HL. As to works of art look at some high grade English sporters built on 98 actions. Read what Kuhnhausen has to say about all pre 98 actions in his Mauser manual. I have done a little bit of iron sight long range rifle shooting and if you are hitting a steel plate at 600 yards with your issue Swede it’s a big one or you have better eye sight than I do

I’ve owned a few Swedes but I just never liked them as well as the rugged 98s so I moved them on. But to each his own. It’s great that we have choices

kaaskop49 · Apr 30, 2021

Hickok45 on YouTube reviewed a M-C modified to be a copy of the rifle Oswald used in 1963. He was not impressed with the rifle, with the inexpensive scope mounted on the receiver. IIRC, Hickok had difficulty hitting most anything, including the 80-yard gong, which he regularly hits with small handguns.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

LVSteve · Apr 30, 2021

kaaskop49 said:
Hickok45 on YouTube reviewed a M-C modified to be a copy of the rifle Oswald used in 1963. He was not impressed with the rifle, with the inexpensive scope mounted on the receiver. IIRC, Hickok had difficulty hitting most anything, including the 80-yard gong, which he regularly hits with small handguns.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

A still of his bucket of ammo shows modern PPU headstamps. Unless it has been reloaded, I can almost guarantee that it uses .264" bullets which is undersized for a Model 38 short rifle. See post#16.

Something else I noticed in that video is that Hickok is BIG guy, and Carcano length of pull isn't nearly enough for him, even with the pad.

MG-70 · Apr 30, 2021

I won't argue the specifics of the rifle or load, but Hickok45 has sasquatch hands and his favorite pistol is a Glock 26. I don't think a short LOP would cause him to miss anything in his backyard.

gregintenn · Apr 30, 2021

kaaskop49 said:
Hickok45 on YouTube reviewed a M-C modified to be a copy of the rifle Oswald used in 1963. He was not impressed with the rifle, with the inexpensive scope mounted on the receiver. IIRC, Hickok had difficulty hitting most anything, including the 80-yard gong, which he regularly hits with small handguns.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

You can’t make me believe Oswald did what he was accused of with a Carcano.

HOUSTON RICK · Apr 30, 2021

I am not picky, but would not spend the money or safe space on a Carcano. It is priced lower than an S&W Model 9VE for a reason. If you are collecting milsurps that might be a reason. I do not think it is much of a shooter. I would choose a Mauser, Springfield 1903, Enfield, Swiss K-31 or Mosin Nagant first.

alwslate · Apr 30, 2021

gregintenn said:
You can’t make me believe Oswald did what he was accused of with a Carcano.

I have seen the TV shows that like to create drama by claiming there was a conspiracy or a second shooter. Pure bunk. Oswald was firing a scoped inaccurate rifle, but at a very short distance for any centerfire rifle. And skeptics always like to ignore the possibility of plain old luck. Given a half dozen tries Oswald might not have been able to duplicate the results of his first shots.

diyj98 · Apr 30, 2021

alwslate said:
Any 98 Mauser is a better gun than any of the rifles made on the pre 98 actions, including the Swedes. Yes they are well made but the design is the problem. 8mm is the most common caliber and is actually the best for a hunting rifle. Don’t judge a book by it’s cover and NEVER buy an old milsurp for a shooter without a good look at the bore condition. And never buy one that has a counter bored muzzle if you plan to shoot groups instead of patterns with it.

I'd disagree with a couple of those statements. The 98 action has some safety improvements, but the 96 action is lighter and makes a nice rifle. As far as the 98 being a "better rifle", most of the Swedish rifles I owned out shot my 98K's. And yes the 8x57 is a larger cartride, but the 6.5x55 and 7x57 make fine whitetail cartridges.

sheepdawg · Apr 30, 2021

alwslate said:
I have done a little bit of iron sight long range rifle shooting and if you are hitting a steel plate at 600 yards with your issue Swede it’s a big one or you have better eye sight than I do

You left out this Swedish 600 yard option. Arguably the best bolt action sniper rifle ever built, the Swedish m41/B.

merl67 · Apr 30, 2021

I have used a 8mm 93 Mauser sporter that I put together for years it will group 1 inch at 100 yards if I do my part. Any of the Mauser calibers would do fine as a deer cartridge. I bought a sporterised Swedish Mauser a month or so ago it just needs finishing got a safety coming going to weld on a new bolt handle looking for a sporter stock should make a good varmint rifle.

alwslate · May 1, 2021

We all have our favorites I guess and I’ll take a decent 98 over any of the lighter but weaker and less safe pre 98s. And as for high quality of build I have an early WW2 98K dated 1937 that puts a Swede to shame by comparison. A standard military issue rifle that is just amazing. It is a vet bring back, not a recent import and all Nazi markings are intact. Every part is serial numbered right down to the small lock screws for the two action bolts. Outstanding wood to metal fit and a very fine heavy laminated stock that makes the Swedish Beech or Birch stocks look like firewood. It was made in one of the German arsenals and is simply amazing quality considering it’s intended purpose. The great 98 set the standard for quality
and has yet to be surpassed.

dsf · May 1, 2021

alwslate said:
I have seen the TV shows that like to create drama by claiming there was a conspiracy or a second shooter. Pure bunk. Oswald was firing a scoped inaccurate rifle, but at a very short distance for any centerfire rifle. And skeptics always like to ignore the possibility of plain old luck. Given a half dozen tries Oswald might not have been able to duplicate the results of his first shots.

This has nothing to do with that issue (although I agree) but in 1963 my Father bought the same rifle with scope from Klein's. He never really used it and after Nov '63 never, but it was later the 1st rifle I learned to reload on. Aggravating given its .266 bore and .264 bullets. I did over the year get to know the scope well. Ordnance Optics.

Fast forward about 40 years and I was in a LGS, they had a junk bin I perpetually looked through and there was an Ordnance Optics scope with the Hollywood address - same scope and maker as the original. They go anywhere from $400.00 to $600.00 depending on who's bidding. Asked "how much?" and IIRC it was $10.00 or so. I told the owner about it, what it was worth and he told me (in a polite way) that I was nuts. But when handed over he took it behind the counter. I think he sold it for mid-$400 or so, was the beginning of us getting along real well and some good deals.

BigBill · May 1, 2021

The argentine carbine in 7.65x53 is a good start.

Rifles to look for,

Yugo model 98 it’s a captured German 98 k in 8 mm.
Swede m38 or m96 in 6.5 Swede.
Chilean m95 7 mm Mauser
Brazilian 1908 7 mm Mauser.
Finnish mosin 7,62x54r m39
Swiss k31 7.5 swiss

I would suggest you getting your c&rffl03 collectors license,

C&r online dealers checkout aim surplus.
Aim surplus
Century arms
J&g sales
Empire arms
Allen’s Armory

If you have any questions message me.

Check this out, newccindex

4barrel · May 1, 2021

I just watched a Belgium video of melting 60 tons of guns.

crazyphil · May 1, 2021

On March 12, 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald, using an assumed name, rented
a post office box. He ordered the rifle by mail from an ad in the February
issue of American Rifleman magazine. It is a full page ad on page 65. I
happen to have a copy of that particular magazine.

As a matter of fact, I had bought the exact same rifle so my wife would
have a rifle for deer hunting. The 6.5 X 52MM military rifle is called the
Carcano Carbine. Lee paid $19.95 for his with a 4 power scope. The ad
says one could get six round clip and 108 rounds of ammo for an added
$7.50.

From my personal experience with the rifle, I am sure that it is fast and
accurate enough to do what Oswald did. Oswald's Carcano came from
Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.

Greyman50 · May 1, 2021

IMHO, having owned 20+ assorted 1903 Springfields, buy a surplus rifle that you can shoot and enjoy plus look at it as as investment. 03’s have gone up in price , But M-2 ball or any hunting 30.06 will work fine. Known a few guys that hunted with theirs. As mentioned any good Mauser is not bad buy although ammo may be a issue.

A surplus rifle question.

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