Question for the lever gun guys

Muley Gil said:

Those were bottleneck rounds and headspace on the shoulder.

"The semi-rimmed 38S does HS on that very small rim. The OAL of the 38S might be a problem in feeding."

Modern .38 Super pistols headspace on the case mouth. Traditionally, the .38 Super was not known for accuracy because the very small rim caused poor HS. Once the change was made, accuracy was on par with other standard pistol rounds.

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Okay, I thought he was talking about rimless cartridges. I don't believe he specified anything else.

Alpo said:

I don't know why this is, but I am unaware of any tubular magazine firearm that Chambers a rimless cartridge. And since rimless cartridges have been around for more than a hundred years, if it was a possibility, it seems like somebody would have done it already.

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The .35 Remington cartridge is rimless and has worked in Marlin lever actions for over 60 years.

Chubbs103 said:

This shop will do it for you.

The Cowboy Shop By Chuckaroo

I believe the Cody rifle are set up NOT to feed ball ammo.

I remember a lot of discussions on the topic a few years ago. There are concerns about ball ammo being used and causing detonation in the magazine. Of course, bullet shape is a concern for any caliber when loaded in a tube magazine. I remember someone pointing out that a rimless cartridge is a greater concern, because rimmed cartridges actually have a tendency to be tilted in the magazine (bullet nose down, rimmed base up), while a rimless cartridge would be more in alignment.

I have no real-world experience with .45 acp in lever guns. Just passing along what I have heard.

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Copy the spiral magazine tube of the Remington mdl 14 & 141 and your bullet point problem goes away.........There is nothing new under the sun.

There was the Marlin Model 62 in 30 Carbine, though that came with a clip magazine.

The Stevens 425 model lever action rifle was chambered in the Remington AutoLoading Rifle series of cartridges,,25,30,32 and 35 Rem.
All rimmless bottleneck of course.
No spiral magazine. They didn't make an awful lot of them, but they worked just fine. Heavy buggers though.
Tough to go up against the big W for a market share of the LA scene.

A rimless or semi rimless cartridge can work fine in a L/A.
Semi rimmed Winchester Self Loading Rifle carridges worked fine in the 1905, 1907, and 1901 series of autoloading rifles.
Box magazine fed, not tube. But they headspaced just fine on their scant semi-rimmed designs.

The rifles such as these or a Marlin LA has a full support chamber so the semi rimmed case can work as it it designed.
You just can't force a case with a rim that is even a few .000 larger in dia than the base just in front of it any deeper into the chamber.

The 38Super was a poor fit in the 1911 as the only case rim support for the semi rim on the case is the small radius of the 'hood' extension off of the breech.
That leaves the semirim from about 1oclock to 11 oclock unsupported.
A sloppy chamber and the case can move forward under the hood rim recess cut.
Poor accuracy resulted.
Headspace it on it's case mouth and it's the same as the 45acp.

In fact it's the same as the 30 Carbine, and that seems to work just fine in auto loading rifles. Why not in a manual loader like a LA.

You have the challenge of working/reworking the feeding, carrier, extraction/ejection to work with the new cartridge.

That's what you get in cartridge conversions. Doesn't matter if it's this or converting a Mauser to something it's not normally thought of as being used for.

The commercial market may not be screaming for a 38Super Lever gun, but that doesn't mean you can't make one.
Damn the cost,,full speed ahead.

A 45acp lever gun may be of interest on the commercial market. But I have an idea that the FMJ ammo worrys the Gun Mfgr lawyers about magazine tube kabooms.
Real or not, those folks are paid to worry about the non existant possibilities of things becoming real.

I use .45 Schofield in my short barrel uberti 1873 and marlin 1894. Played around some with shorter 45 cowboy special. You run into issues with the oal being too short. But with enough money they can be made to run with the short semi rimmed cartridges. Wild Bunch cas shooters developed them mainly so they only need a lot of 45acp ammo to shoot a match.

2152hq said:

The Stevens 425 model lever action rifle was chambered in the Remington AutoLoading Rifle series of cartridges,,25,30,32 and 35 Rem.
All rimmless bottleneck of course.
No spiral magazine. They didn't make an awful lot of them, but they worked just fine. Heavy buggers though.
Tough to go up against the big W for a market share of the LA scene.

A rimless or semi rimless cartridge can work fine in a L/A.
Semi rimmed Winchester Self Loading Rifle carridges worked fine in the 1905, 1907, and 1901 series of autoloading rifles.
Box magazine fed, not tube. But they headspaced just fine on their scant semi-rimmed designs.

The rifles such as these or a Marlin LA has a full support chamber so the semi rimmed case can work as it it designed.
You just can't force a case with a rim that is even a few .000 larger in dia than the base just in front of it any deeper into the chamber.

The 38Super was a poor fit in the 1911 as the only case rim support for the semi rim on the case is the small radius of the 'hood' extension off of the breech.
That leaves the semirim from about 1oclock to 11 oclock unsupported.
A sloppy chamber and the case can move forward under the hood rim recess cut.
Poor accuracy resulted.
Headspace it on it's case mouth and it's the same as the 45acp.

In fact it's the same as the 30 Carbine, and that seems to work just fine in auto loading rifles. Why not in a manual loader like a LA.

You have the challenge of working/reworking the feeding, carrier, extraction/ejection to work with the new cartridge.

That's what you get in cartridge conversions. Doesn't matter if it's this or converting a Mauser to something it's not normally thought of as being used for.

The commercial market may not be screaming for a 38Super Lever gun, but that doesn't mean you can't make one.
Damn the cost,,full speed ahead.

A 45acp lever gun may be of interest on the commercial market. But I have an idea that the FMJ ammo worrys the Gun Mfgr lawyers about magazine tube kabooms.
Real or not, those folks are paid to worry about the non existant possibilities of things becoming real.

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The 150 gr Remington .35 cal bullet was almost a a spitzer with a flat point. It never kaboomed in any Marlin lever rifle........I imagine the cartridge stop on the tube magazine would be the biggest problem to overcome with a rimless round.

A different approach that works for me........... for matching caliber rifle and handgun.

I have a Winchester Trapper and a Ruger Ranch carbine (5+1) both in .357mag. as utility rifles around the cabin.............

If they are "primary" then I'll back them up with a 60-10 .357 "micro-686"
Smaller lighter and thinner than a full size 4" 686.... extra Safariland Comp I speeder loader in a split -six mag pouch..... easy to carry IWB in a kydex holster.

No one does .45ACP in tubular magazines because people will insist on loading them up with 230 gr ball. Then eventually a bullet nose will smack the primer in front of it and cause several rounds in the tube to fire all at once and split the magazine tube. Might injure the shooter’s supporting hand in the process.
Just get a .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and be done with it.
Or better yet, a .30/30.
There is no real need to have the handgun and rifle shoot the same cartridge.
Convenient, but not necessary.

smoothshooter said:

No one does .45ACP in tubular magazines because people will insist on loading them up with 230 gr ball. Then eventually a bullet nose will smack the primer in front of it and cause several rounds in the tube to fire all at once and split the magazine tube. Might injure the shooter’s supporting hand in the process.
Just get a .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and be done with it.
Or better yet, a .30/30.
There is no real need to have the handgun and rifle shoot the same cartridge.
Convenient, but not necessary.

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Both round nose and flat points are acceptable in a tubular magazine, just not spire points.

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I agree with you that the .30-30 is hard to beat in a lever gun.

I have three Pre 64 Model 94 20” carbines with tang sights and all three are excellent for taking deer sized game out to about 200 yards. All three are 1.5 MOA accurate, compared to about 3 MOA for post 1963 Model 94 carbines.

Similarly, I have a pre war 26” Model 94 rifle. It’s even better balanced and adds about 140 fps to the 150 gr RN load’s 20” 2260 fps performance.



About a year ago I acquired a post 1963 Model 95 Classic 26” rifle mostly to prevent wear and tear on my pre was Model 94 rifle and when I confirmed it shot well, I added a Williams receiver sight. It’s a solid 1.5 MOA rifle with the receiver sight installed.




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However, I am also a big fan of the .38-55 and I bought a couple of Winchester Legendary Frontiersman rifles as they are well made, great shooters at 1.5 to 2 MOA depending on the load, and are not too gaudy as commemoratives go. Given they made 19,999 of them, they also don’t have any real collectors value and can be had for around $800, a lot less than the $2229 MSRP for a comparable Miroku made Winchester Model 94 in .38-55.

A modern metallurgy 38-55 can launch a 255 gr flat nose soft point at 1950 fps. Zeroed for 180 yardsit has a +/-5” point blank range of 210 yards and still retains 1304 fps and 962 ft pounds at 200 yards, compared to 1485 fps and 734 ft pounds for the .30-30.

Even loaded down to black powder era cartridge levels with a 245 gr cast bullet at 1275 fps and a 125 yard zero it still has a 150 yard point blank range of 150 yards and retains 1034 fps and 580 ft pounds at 150 yards.





That last figure for the 38-55 is interesting as the Federal .357 Magnum 158 gr soft point launches at 1820 fps from a 20” Model 92. With a 150 yard zero it has a +/-5” point blank range of 175 yards and retains 1349 fps and 638 ft pounds at 150 yards.

That’s pretty impressive for a mid bore handgun cartridge, and makes the .357 Mag cartridge a legitimate deer getter out to around 150 yards. Which is why I own a couple Rossi Model 92s in .357 Mag. Both of the, are 2 MOA accurate at 100 yards.



And if you live in one of the states that limits rifles to straight wall pistol cartridges, it’s a very good option, whether you own a .357 Mag revolver or not.

Okay, for what it's worth I did a little experimenting today with my S&W M27-2 with a 6" barrel (no pic, but everyone knows what an M27 looks like), and my recently acquired Rossi R92 with 24" barrel. (The R92 is a clone of the Winchester Model 1892. I replaced the safety that Rossi puts on the bolt with a peep sight.)





I was able to chamber, fire and eject .38 Super ammo out of my M27, PMC 115gr JHP. It says it's +P on the box. Accuracy was fine and average velocity for 3 shots was 1164fps.

*edit* Odd thing - I had two types of .38 Super ammo, the PMC and some Armscor 115 gr FMJ ball ammo. The Armscor would not chamber in the M27-2 or in a Model 19 that I had also brought, or the Rossi. However both brands would chamber in a Colt 1911 .38 Super barrel that I have at home. But neither would chamber in my Registered Magnum.

The PMC ammo would not cycle in the Rossi R92, the cartridges would never feed through the mechanism. But I could single load it into the chamber, fire and eject without any problem. For some reason I could never get it to register on my LabRadar chronograph so I don't have any idea what the velocity might have been.

For comparison, here are some average velocities (for 3 shots) that I got out of the S&W and the Rossi with some of my handloads:

.38 Special 125gr JHP with 8.2gr Blue Dot
M27-2: 943 fps
R92: 1328 fps

.357 125gr JHP with 20.0 H110
M27-2: 1281 fps
R92: 2161 fps

.357 158 plated HP with 15.0 2400
M27-2: 1169 fps
R92: 1862 fps

I don't know what might be required to make a .357 1892 style action work with the short cartridge length of the .38 Super, but it doesn't look like any rechambering would need to be done. And if the velocity increase that we see with the .38 Special and .357 holds true for the Super, we might expect to see 1500 fps or more (from a 24" barrel).

Tom K said:

For comparison, here are some average velocities .....

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Thanks for the Chrono data. I have that same 24" Rossi, and was always impressed how fast the targets got impacted when shooting it, compared to my revolvers. It's enlightening seeing the side-by-side numbers.



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Tom K said:

Okay, for what it's worth I did a little experimenting today with my S&W M27-2 with a 6" barrel (no pic, but everyone knows what an M27 looks like), and my recently acquired Rossi R92 with 24" barrel. (The R92 is a clone of the Winchester Model 1892. I replaced the safety that Rossi puts on the bolt with a peep sight.)

I was able to chamber, fire and eject .38 Super ammo out of my M27, PMC 115gr JHP. It says it's +P on the box. Accuracy was fine and average velocity for 3 shots was 1164fps.

The same ammo would not cycle through the Rossi R92, the cartridges would never operate through the mechanism. But I could single load it into the chamber, fire and eject without any problem. For some reason I could never get it to register on my LabRadar chronograph so I don't have any idea what the velocity might have been.

For comparison, here are some average velocities (for 3 shots) that I got out of the S&W and the Rossi with some of my handloads:

.38 Special 125gr JHP with 8.2gr Blue Dot
M27-2: 943 fps
R92: 1328 fps

.357 125gr JHP with 20.0 H110
M27-2: 1281 fps
R92: 2161 fps

.357 158 plated HP with 15.0 2400
M27-2: 1169 fps
R92: 1862 fps

I don't know what might be required to make a .357 1892 style action work with the short cartridge length of the .38 Super, but it doesn't look like any rechambering would need to be done. And if the velocity increase that we see with the .38 Special and .357 holds true for the Super, we might expect to see 1500 fps or more (from a 24" barrel).

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It would be ideal.....The 1911 in 38 Super and my Marlin 1897 to match....wow, what combo....

I have matching 41 mag, and 357 mag, but the Super 38 would be S. Texas Prime Cool

Not rimless, but shorter...

My Marlin 1894 Cowboy Special is chambered in 45 Colt. I have loaded and shot and ejected and fed the next round with 45 Schofield. If you have one limited to 10 round of 45 Colt, it holds 14 45 Schofield. If you have an unlimited magazine that holts 14 45 Colt, it holds 19 or 20 45 Schofield (Depends on bullet nose length). These numbers are similar on my two Rossi 92's in 45 Colt. Scofield ammo works in single or double action revolvers that don't have recessed chambers. This falls into the old saying about a Henry Rifle: Load it on Sunday and fire it all week!

I do KNOW from expierance that 38 S&W will not work is either Marlin or Rossi 357 carbines! I THINK 44 Russian is too short to work in the 44 Mag. carbines.

I have had a Marlin Camp 45 for around 20/25 years, I love it. Since I am used to 1911 mags being 7+1 or 8+1 rounds. The low round count isn't a big deal to me. It is still a lot of fire power.

Ivan

I use Schofield brass loaded with 255 gr wc loads in my Marlin 1894s and a stoeger 1873 carbine. They run fine. Experimented with .45CS loads in the ’94 using a spare carrier but haven’t gotten them to work.