S&W 945 PC detail photos (shooting experiences added)

[Crazy K38]

I would go for the armoror's class then you will enhance your knowledge of the pistol AND get something for your article

 

[Gunhacker]

The 945 are supposed to already have a match barrel in them... that's one of the Performance Center features touted for all pistols.

No one as far as I know currently sells a replacement match barrel. If there is one, I'd take advantage of the upper being from the 4506 lineage and buy one for my 4506-1.

I don't know how much of a hassle it would be for you, and I get the feeling it's probably impractical, but you might consider sending it off to S&W (on their dime) to have that barrel looked at... or call Customer Service to see if they would sent a replacement barrel.

I recently had a PC 4006 IDPA that was dragging the right side ambi decocker lever on the frame due to lateral free play. Not only did they fix the decocker problem, they also refinished the frame to get rid of the bright wear lines created on the matte frame surface by the problem.

 

[sasu]

I shot more groups with the Remington 230 FMJ ammo, just to rule out flukes. These are 25 meter (yard) groups shot from a sand bag rest.

Group size 2.4"

Group size 3.0"

Aim small, miss small did not help this time, group size 4.3". I hope that is a shooter induced flyer at the bottom.

Just for reference I shot my stock Kimber Tactical Pro II with the same ammo, groups were 3.4" and 3.5". So my $2200 Performance Center gun is just slightly more accurate than a $1300 Kimber. Hmm...

Seriously speaking, I will continue testing different loads in the 945PC, hopefully I will find something that shoots better. As you can see the gun would be useless at least for bullseye with this load, it can barely keep the hits in the 9-ring of an official pistol target.

The right hand side thumb safety lever does not work, it goes down just a small amount and then refuses to move further down. I have to press the left hand side safety lever to disengage the safety. I found this out while doing weak hand practice today.

(EDIT: I solved the safety problem, sort of. The safeties slide apart so they do not connect with each other properly anymore. I pressed the right hand side safety lever back in as far as it went and now both levers work again. But the lever will walk out again if nothing is changed. I will have to figure out how to remove the safety and have a look at their connection mechanism. The traditional 1911 system ("cock hammer, move safety to mid position, pull safety out") did not work, at least not with reasonable force. Does someone know how to remove the 945PC thumb safety levers?)

I am overseas so sending the gun in for warranty repairs is out of the question. Do you know if a 1911 thumb safety works in this gun? Such a common spare part would be easy to find and easy to fit myself.

 

[bhpDrew645]

I had the same issue with the thumb safety on my Springfield TRP.
Try tightening the top grip panel on the side that the lever is walking out on. It is actually the grip panel that holds that lever in place enough to engage the other safety.
I know this is not the greatest advice. I did this and it worked (yes, I know I did it with a 1911 and not this model) at least for about 6 months before I had the whole safety system replaced with a Mushke thumb safety system.
If you are over seas there should still be a warranty center out there some place. Have you looked?

 

[dgludwig]

sasu: Have you tried using factory match, 185 grain, semi-wadcutter ammunition through your 945? My 945 shoots superbly with this stuff. I know it's pricey and sometimes hard to come by. Because I'm a long time bullseye shooter and not independently wealthy, I have to reload for the most part if I plan on shooting much. But trying the factory match ammo should show you what your 945 is (or is not) capable of and will give you a base line from which to judge how well your reloads stack up.

 

[sasu]

Have you tried using factory match, 185 grain, semi-wadcutter ammunition through your 945?

Not yet but I will soon.

I reload my own ammo. I do not have any match bullets or match ammo at the moment, since I have stocked up on bulk bullets for action shooting.

I will keep you posted on how my accuracy experiments go. I will also shoot my 4506 and Les Baer 1911 for reference in future experiments, to take the shooter out of the formula without going to a Ransom Rest which I do not have.

I would like to quote Massad Ayoob from his 945 review article:

Hand-held off a bench, as this pistol was tested, groups in the 3" range aren't great, but aren't really awful either.
...
Now, let's get subjective for a minute. If I'm gonna pay $2 grand for a target-grade pistol, I want it to put all five rounds into 1" from my own two hands.
...
S&W's Jim Rae tells me a 5" 945 does not have any particular accuracy spec it has to meet before it leaves the Performance Center, but will generally put five shots into 1" to an 1 1/4" at 25 yards.

I am now trying to find out how my pistol performs. I have a suspicion I might end up buying a replacement barrel and having it fitted tighter than the original barrel.

I do not understand the mechanics of the 945 barrel fit yet, but there seems to be room for improvement on my pistol. When installed just in the slide, the rear of the barrel moves a couple of several thousandths from side-to-side and fore-and-aft. The hood has been machined or filed a bit short, the gun takes a 0.002" feeler gauge between the breech face and barrel hood. I do not know where the side-to-side play comes from and which parts should stabilize the barrel when it is in battery. When the bullet travels through the rifling it tries to twist the barrel, and the barrel should be so well supported sideways that it will not twist with the bullet.

Patrick Sweeney says in one of his books on pistols (The Gun Digest Book of 1911 - Volume 2) that you should not have to sacrifice ammo versatility or reliability to get accuracy.

If you can get good accuracy only with a particular bullet, or ammunition, or load, then you have to ask if it is worth it.
...
you can get a top-quality barrel installed, and pretty much count on good accuracy with everything...

The last point is proven by my SW1911PD, which shoots 2" groups with this Remington 230 FMJ bulk ammo. That pistol has a professionally fitted Ed Brown barrel. It shoots great even though the slide to frame fit borders on nightmarish: it has around 0.010" vertical and horizontal clearance, where match guns are fitted with only up to 0.001" clearance. The gun shot 5"-6" groups with the factory barrel, which was not fitted properly at the lower lugs and the hood. S&W offered to repair the gun but sending it in from overseas was not feasible, but anyway I am happy with the outcome even though it cost a few hundred dollars to achieve.

I expect 3"-4" 25 meter groups from 9 mm service pistols, but definitely not from match pistols. Any pistol that shoots more than 4" groups at 25 meters even after trying several types of ammo is going to be inspected for problems and then repaired. For example I just bought a factory mid price range 1911 that delivered 5"-6" groups - turned out the barrel lower lugs were not fitted properly and the gun went out for warranty work (for longevity reasons, not for accuracy).

With revolvers I expect to get 1"-2" groups at 25 meters. If I cannot do that, there is something wrong with the gun. So far reasons have ranged from nicked muzzle crown to misaligned chambers to under sized or over sized cylinder throats.

I am not a gunsmith so I am laying out my thought processes to be criticized and corrected. I am trying to learn, the end goal is not so much a super accurate gun but rather more knowledge.

EDIT:

I checked how the slide stop pin supports the barrel from below. This seems to be pretty good?

I definitely have to give this gun a chance with good match ammo. The barrel fit seems a lot better after doing some measurements.

 

[dgludwig]

EDIT:

I checked how the slide stop pin supports the barrel from below. This seems to be pretty good?

I definitely have to give this gun a chance with good match ammo. The barrel fit seems a lot better after doing some measurements.[/QUOTE]

From your photo, I think the fit looks pretty darn tight. Do keep us posted as to your continuing work with your 945. I've found it to be interesting as well as informative.

 

[Gunhacker]

I've been wondering whether or not it's a problem with too light of a recoil spring allowing the barrel to begin it's travel too soon, letting the barrel start to go out of battery.

It has really mystified me too, as I checked all of the clearances on my 945 and by all rights it should be shooting better than it does.

It has a tighter slide to frame fit than my Gold Cup, the briley barrel bushings are known for contributing to the accuracy of a gun, and my 945 locks really up solid and yet the "sloppier" Gold Cup out does it.

It is going be very interesting to see where you investigation leads.

 

[sasu]

I did some more shooting with different factory ammo and reloads, to have some hard data for the magazine article.

I was able to get down to average groups of 2.3"-2.4" at 25 meters off sandbags with the best two reloads.

My Les Baer 1911 I used for reference shot those same loads to 1.3"-1.5" average.

Bulk ball ammo seems to be a 3"-inch affair in this gun, I tried several manufacturers.

Groups of 2" inches are good enough for action shooting, but not for bullseye.

I will post more detailed information in a few months, after the magazine article has been out for a while.

 

[wheel gun.44]

I also like the WOW factor of my 945, but I too, have a tack drivein' Model 70 Series Gold Cup, tricked out of course, that will shoot the pants off of my PC 945.

 

[wheel gun.44]

SASU:

I too, have had problems with my 945 ambidextrous safety and I'm left handed! I am afarid to use it!!

The folks at the Performance Center know there is a problem.(See my other posts)

I have a Colt Gold Cup with an ambidextrous and never had a problem with it.

 

[sasu]

If you are over seas there should still be a warranty center out there some place.

In Belgium, yes. It still requires permits to send a gun there.

I wrote S&W a letter explaining how this gun does not exhibit the level of accuracy I would expect from a $2000+ Performance Center gun, and I also mentioned the ambi safety that does not stay put and the rough bore and chamber finish.

It will be interesting to see how they reply.

If I were in the States S&W would probably take the pistol in for a check up. But as I am in Europe there will be extra legal work to move the gun across borders and I do not know what are S&Ws gunsmithing capabilities here in Europe.

I wrote in my letter that if they do not consider the gun eligible for warranty work, then at least sell me a new barrel I can have locally fitted.

 

[Southern Man]

Hi there!

My first post ever... I'm not too much of an internet guy, anyways.

However, sitting here (Germany), waiting for my own brandnew 945PC to be shipped...

About accuracy: I've only once ever shot a 945: Slide to frame fit had some lateral play, the rear end of the barrel rattled in the slide -- all this with the gun field stripped. Put back together, there was no play whatsoever, no matter how hard you pushed, twisted or wrestled with any part of it. I can only assume that the barrel is pushed into place by its lower lugs properly interacting with the frame. The barrel inside looked perfectly shiny to me.

Now, here's the funny part: I couldn't hit a barn from the inside with this particular gun... Don't know why.

Even funnier: I ordered a 945 anyways -- guess I love challenges! The fact that they are currently availlable for 990 Euro (approx. $ 1350) at The Duke - Original American Gunshop GmbH - Spezialist für amerikanische Waffen und Munition - Waffen- und Munitionshandel, Waffenhändler, Waffenhandel helped with the decision, too... ;-)

Now, in his great book "The Gun Digest Book of Smith & Wesson" Patrick Sweeney writes that the 945 performs best with BLack Hillls Red 185 JHP. He shot groups measuring under an inch at 15 yards over sandbags with that stuff!

What do we learn from this? Ammo seems to be the most important issue with this gun!

My Les Baer Premier II doesn't have any of these accuracy issues... Well I STILL love the 945. It was love at first sight... Can't wait to finally take delivery of that little beauty!!!

I'll keep you posted.

 

[18DAI]

My S&W Performance Center CQB 45 likes 185 grain best, for tight small grouping. Most of my other S&W 45's will group best with a 185 grain 45 as well.

"S&W's Jim Rae tells me a 5" 945 does not have any particular accuracy spec it has to meet before it leaves the performance center..."

WOW! Thats disappointing, and surprising. Didn't those 945's come from the factory with a test target and an "accuracy guarantee" at one time?

Am I confusing it with another PC pistol?

Sooo...what are you getting for $2000 besides the additional laser etching, and gee whiz cosmetics, that you don't get from a regular production pistol???? Regards 18DAI

 

[Southern Man]

Well, that's a good question... If you tend to look at the bright side of things, then maybe these pistols aren't subjected to factory accuracy tests because they don't have to? Because they ARE accurate? I can't say, yet -- as I said, mine hasn't even arrived, yet.

However, these guns DO look awesome. Maybe that's all there is to them.

 

[sasu]

I have sent a letter to Smith & Wesson inquiring if the accuracy I am experiencing is what they consider reasonable.

The chamber and bore finish is quite rough and the rear of the barrel is not too well fitted.

If they will not repair it under warranty, I will purchase a new barrel and install it myself. I cannot imagine owning a $2300 match gun that is not accurate, it would feel like having a pebble in my shoe.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Excuse me while i wipe the drool off my chin! Great pic taking too!

 

[Southern Man]

Letter to S&W

Now, that's funny -- here's what I wrote to S&W today:


Hello,

I have just ordered a new 945PC with a 5 inch barrel. Now, reading the S&W forum and other sources (internet, reviews in magazines), I get the impression that there's no other S&W gun that's more controversial than the 945. Some say it's dead accurate, others give it a bashing for unnacceptable accuracy flaws as well as rough barrel insides and loose fitting.

What's the truth?

Don't worry - I can take it. I'm NOT going to cancel my order, no matter what your answer will be. I just want to know how much accuracy I will get out of this gun.

I have been a long time user of your products (686, 629, 27) and I must say that I've always been more than happy with the quality and accuracy of all these revolvers! Thus, I shall remain a loyal customer and keep the 945 in high regard no matter what.

Thanks in advance for your honest and informative reply.

Cheers,

Helwig


I am extremely curious what kind of answer I'm going to recieve. However, I'm even MORE curious what kind of gun I'm gonna recieve?!?

The dealer I ordered from promised to select the best one of those he's got left... Now, I bet that's what he tells all the customers. Maybe it's a better idea to drop by his shop (200 miles away) and see for myself? What do you guys think?

 

[1911ES]

945

The S&W 945 is a piece of art ......... (excuse me while I stare)

 

[rbert0005]

I think you are sweating for nothing.

I will bet that what they send you will more than just please you. The people that are not happy are very few and far between.

My reloads will make one hole groups all day long, from 50 feet.

Enjoy,
Bob