Which caliber is best
- Thread starter anglaispierre
- Start date
oldRoger
US Veteran
I strongly suspect that we will soon see the 5.7 X 28 touted as the ultimate in whatever.
With the possible exception of the proposed “dowel penetration” scientific study, data from which is not yet available, there seems to be little information available which is not controversial.
M&S and F, all have generated a lot of heat. The statisticians say that M&S studies frequently lack enough data and the results are consequently suspect. The only answer to this problem is to wait for more data.
The small, light, and fast crowd fights with the big, heavy, and slow crowd.
For myself I belong to the big, heavy, and fast school.
I do not see how one can go wrong with a .44 or .45 of 250gr traveling at 1200fps.
I am not certain that anything helps with trolls.
With the possible exception of the proposed “dowel penetration” scientific study, data from which is not yet available, there seems to be little information available which is not controversial.
M&S and F, all have generated a lot of heat. The statisticians say that M&S studies frequently lack enough data and the results are consequently suspect. The only answer to this problem is to wait for more data.
The small, light, and fast crowd fights with the big, heavy, and slow crowd.
For myself I belong to the big, heavy, and fast school.
I do not see how one can go wrong with a .44 or .45 of 250gr traveling at 1200fps.
I am not certain that anything helps with trolls.
Gutpile Charlie
US Veteran
I looked at that rambling piece of bloviating...and just gave it a pass!
HOLY TOLEDO JONES! COME ON, GIMME A BREAK!
What the hell kind of question is that?
It's all BS!
The "question" doesn't have an answer!
End of discussion.
HOLY TOLEDO JONES! COME ON, GIMME A BREAK!
What the hell kind of question is that?
It's all BS!
The "question" doesn't have an answer!
End of discussion.
Here's my theory: "two to the chest and one to the head, make sure that they're good and dead." NEVER forget the head shot. -Ed.
I would never let science, research, and evidence get in the way of my opinion. Especially if it's someone else's. I would like to say that the phrase "handgun knockdown power" is almost oxymoronic, unless you're talking about swinging an N-frame upside someone's temple.
GatorFarmer
Member
There's a fairly good consensus these days as to what works. Most of the arguements that one sees on the gunboards are based around the information of 20 years ago. The "old" arguement involved the legitimacy of the Quantico symposium (which took place in '89) and it's emphasis on terminal penetration compared to Marshall and Sanow's work.
Marshall is probably a decent guy. He retired to the town where I grew up, and used to go the same range I did during a brief overlap, but we never met. Sanow isn't invoked as much, perhaps owing to those with long memories recalling him writing truly... strange... things such as his claims that 147 gr JHP 9mm ammunition wouldn't even work the slide in many/most autos and suggesting that even 124 gr JHP might be better. Yeah, that was strange. He seemed to have vanished from the gun mags some years back, though I admit that I don't keep up on them.
The more recent controversy have been whether unconventional ammunition - the 5.7mm FN, various frangible designs - work as well or better than the current crop of accepted offerings.
Accepted offerings that most people are satisfied with seem to include the Gold Dots in 124gr +P 9mm, hot 125 gr GD loads in .357 Sig, mid weight GD offering in .40, and heavy to midweight .45 ACP offerings.
You can insert other premium JHPs such as the Federal HST or Remington GS or Winchester's Ranger/Talon in place of the Gold Dot.
Constrast this with 30 years ago when it was just a matter of .45 FMJ or .357 mag 125 grain being "best". Anecdotal accounts suggested both were working out.
We currently have jello science to fall back on, along with small studies conducted by various police departments. These have lead to a "general guide" as to what one wants a bullet to do. The most accepted general guide is that a bullet ought penetrate 12" or more (keep in the mind or more part, since the original standard was 18") of tissue, work reliably in a given gun, and once those are accomplished, maximize tissue damage.
Marshall is probably a decent guy. He retired to the town where I grew up, and used to go the same range I did during a brief overlap, but we never met. Sanow isn't invoked as much, perhaps owing to those with long memories recalling him writing truly... strange... things such as his claims that 147 gr JHP 9mm ammunition wouldn't even work the slide in many/most autos and suggesting that even 124 gr JHP might be better. Yeah, that was strange. He seemed to have vanished from the gun mags some years back, though I admit that I don't keep up on them.
The more recent controversy have been whether unconventional ammunition - the 5.7mm FN, various frangible designs - work as well or better than the current crop of accepted offerings.
Accepted offerings that most people are satisfied with seem to include the Gold Dots in 124gr +P 9mm, hot 125 gr GD loads in .357 Sig, mid weight GD offering in .40, and heavy to midweight .45 ACP offerings.
You can insert other premium JHPs such as the Federal HST or Remington GS or Winchester's Ranger/Talon in place of the Gold Dot.
Constrast this with 30 years ago when it was just a matter of .45 FMJ or .357 mag 125 grain being "best". Anecdotal accounts suggested both were working out.
We currently have jello science to fall back on, along with small studies conducted by various police departments. These have lead to a "general guide" as to what one wants a bullet to do. The most accepted general guide is that a bullet ought penetrate 12" or more (keep in the mind or more part, since the original standard was 18") of tissue, work reliably in a given gun, and once those are accomplished, maximize tissue damage.
OP
anglaispierre
Member
Thanks Gator for taking the time to write without being hypercritical. Some people thought I was raising questions, but I was simply setting out some data for people like you to respond to. The whole point of the thread is to consider what is suitable as a self defense caliber and I suppose that leads on to what gun do you prefer to fire it from, though I never asked that. Just for the record though, which are your preferences.
Here in France we can't carry or use our guns for self defence so the problem does not arise, but I like my CZ 75B 9mm to be accessible. I don't store any guns loaded, but at least with a semi-auto all I have to do is insert a mag. French law requires me to keep handguns and ammo locked up serarately. Bit of a bitch if a burglar walks into my bedroom in the middle of the night.
I would like a 1911 in due course (centenary coming up in just over a year) but I have always though that it is not necesssary to go that big for self defence. My next gun will be a Walther PPK .32 ACP. And I have never watched a James Bond movie!
Here in France we can't carry or use our guns for self defence so the problem does not arise, but I like my CZ 75B 9mm to be accessible. I don't store any guns loaded, but at least with a semi-auto all I have to do is insert a mag. French law requires me to keep handguns and ammo locked up serarately. Bit of a bitch if a burglar walks into my bedroom in the middle of the night.
I would like a 1911 in due course (centenary coming up in just over a year) but I have always though that it is not necesssary to go that big for self defence. My next gun will be a Walther PPK .32 ACP. And I have never watched a James Bond movie!
venomballistics
Member
Allyn....
there is a reason we gravitate to the biggest practical gun in a defensive role.
If an adversary needs to be shot, it is because they could not otherwise be made to accept reason.
This condition is caused largely by drugs, mental conditions, and emotional states where pain is just not perceived anywhere near the expected manner.
a sober and rational man can be turned away, and even killed with even a 25 auto.
one police report I read many years ago involving an armed robber who was quite well spaced out on drugs to the point that he bled a greenish orange colored blood, was shot 18 times with a 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points. and took EVERY LAST BULLET in the chest and on his feet!!!!
there is a reason we gravitate to the biggest practical gun in a defensive role.
If an adversary needs to be shot, it is because they could not otherwise be made to accept reason.
This condition is caused largely by drugs, mental conditions, and emotional states where pain is just not perceived anywhere near the expected manner.
a sober and rational man can be turned away, and even killed with even a 25 auto.
one police report I read many years ago involving an armed robber who was quite well spaced out on drugs to the point that he bled a greenish orange colored blood, was shot 18 times with a 357 magnum loaded with 125 grain hollow points. and took EVERY LAST BULLET in the chest and on his feet!!!!
OP
anglaispierre
Member
I know what you mean. I'm sure that it was in this forum that I read of a LEO (policeman to us Brits) who put about 12 into a guy before he finally went down. I have no idea what gun or ammo the officer had. He was also shot in the incident.
I have no idea what effect drugs or alcohol have on a person who has been shot. Would it have made any difference if it had been larger/smaller caliber. It's questions like this that make for interesting conversation.
I don't think the perception of pain is relevant. Either the guy dies or he doesn't.
I would love to see the coroner's report in that case.
venomballistics
Member
Going into shock can kill.
it is conceivable that being shot through the forearm with say, a nail gun, could induce a state of panic in someone, which can induce a state of shock which thereafter may lead to death even though the wound itself is not life threatening in any way.
the perception of pain is quite relevant as it relates to the process of shock.
Germany during WW2 had experimented with cocaine as an infantry enhancement.
German troops stoned as the rock of Gibraltar went head to head with armor ... and came back to die after the wounds caught up with them.
At this point the nature of injuries need to address a more mechanical school of thought where the target must be rendered unable to fight long enough for those wounds to catch up with his ambitions.
a man with no arms nor legs cannot fight.
the gun that makes that condition possible is ... huge.
you state a case of an LEO putting 12 into a perp before they went down ...
odds are that the caliber was either a 9MM or a 40S&W and most likely FMJ
it is conceivable that being shot through the forearm with say, a nail gun, could induce a state of panic in someone, which can induce a state of shock which thereafter may lead to death even though the wound itself is not life threatening in any way.
the perception of pain is quite relevant as it relates to the process of shock.
Germany during WW2 had experimented with cocaine as an infantry enhancement.
German troops stoned as the rock of Gibraltar went head to head with armor ... and came back to die after the wounds caught up with them.
At this point the nature of injuries need to address a more mechanical school of thought where the target must be rendered unable to fight long enough for those wounds to catch up with his ambitions.
a man with no arms nor legs cannot fight.
the gun that makes that condition possible is ... huge.
you state a case of an LEO putting 12 into a perp before they went down ...
odds are that the caliber was either a 9MM or a 40S&W and most likely FMJ
poe
Member
France sux.
MK
Member
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I know a guy personally who was shot 7 times with a .357 mag at a
party in Austin TX and lived to talk about it. It messed him up pretty
good, and he was in the hospital for quite a spell, but he lived.
I know another guy who was shoved to the ground and shot in the face
execution style with a 12 gauge shotgun, and he too lived to talk about
it.
You just never know. I've talked to more than a few police officers
that state the lowly .22 kills as many as about anything.
.22's can be really lethal cuz they like to change directions and cause
more damage along another path. Heck, I was up at my OK place
last week, and I found a few spent .22 slugs in a tree stump I was
shooting at a few months before. With the way they deformed, you
could tell they could be really deadly in some cases. They mushroomed
out to twice their normal diameter.
Me? I'm not overly particular as long as it's loaded and goes bang... :/
But my everyday defense pistol is a .40 S&W. So I guess that puts me in
the semi heavy and slow bracket.
OP
anglaispierre
Member
tom turner
US Veteran
Hi,
I read all that stuff . . . back "in the day." It made good reading and many, many posts on various forums that had all sorts of folks arguing over which is best.
Today? . . . well . . . I LIKE 'EM ALL . . . and for various reasons!
The lowly .22 will get the job done, and is fun and cheap to shoot.
The .357 is an awesome round, the .40 Short & Wimpy is great for an all around cop round in a bottom feeder.
The 9mm and .38 Spl. are soft shooting but usually effective rounds.
I love the .45 for the most fun to shoot, serious "fighting" handgun round.
I've taken lots of deer with my S&W .44 Magnum . . . though I killed a buck a week ago with a broadside, through-the-heart shot from a 300 grain heavy bullet . . . and the "dead" deer ran 180 yards without pumping any blood at all. Go figure!
The .44 Spl. is as fun to shoot as the .45ACP and the .45 Long Colt is a great caliber too.
Heck, even the lowly .32 S&W Long has to rank in there also as a super accurate round that's a pure joy to shoot.
MY RESEARCH HAS PROVEN . . . (at least for me) THAT THE BEST HANDGUN ROUND . . . is the one that is currently on your PERSON when trouble comes!
In this case, it as a .38 Spl., 5-shot S&W Model 37 Airweight snubbie riding in my pocket holster!!! It is a heck of a lot more effective on a sudden threat than all the bigger hitting guns that are locked "safely" in the safe!
At this point in life, I really don't care which caliber I'm carrying on an everyday basis. I'm very comfortable and confident shooting them all . . . and like my odds of success should I ever be forced to use them.
IMHO, experience + tens of thousands of rounds of serious practice + skill + shot placement is more important than caliber size. Heck, this combination is generally only beaten by random cases of good ol' dumb luck!
T.
I read all that stuff . . . back "in the day." It made good reading and many, many posts on various forums that had all sorts of folks arguing over which is best.
Today? . . . well . . . I LIKE 'EM ALL . . . and for various reasons!
The lowly .22 will get the job done, and is fun and cheap to shoot.
The .357 is an awesome round, the .40 Short & Wimpy is great for an all around cop round in a bottom feeder.
The 9mm and .38 Spl. are soft shooting but usually effective rounds.
I love the .45 for the most fun to shoot, serious "fighting" handgun round.
I've taken lots of deer with my S&W .44 Magnum . . . though I killed a buck a week ago with a broadside, through-the-heart shot from a 300 grain heavy bullet . . . and the "dead" deer ran 180 yards without pumping any blood at all. Go figure!
The .44 Spl. is as fun to shoot as the .45ACP and the .45 Long Colt is a great caliber too.
Heck, even the lowly .32 S&W Long has to rank in there also as a super accurate round that's a pure joy to shoot.
MY RESEARCH HAS PROVEN . . . (at least for me) THAT THE BEST HANDGUN ROUND . . . is the one that is currently on your PERSON when trouble comes!
In this case, it as a .38 Spl., 5-shot S&W Model 37 Airweight snubbie riding in my pocket holster!!! It is a heck of a lot more effective on a sudden threat than all the bigger hitting guns that are locked "safely" in the safe!
At this point in life, I really don't care which caliber I'm carrying on an everyday basis. I'm very comfortable and confident shooting them all . . . and like my odds of success should I ever be forced to use them.
IMHO, experience + tens of thousands of rounds of serious practice + skill + shot placement is more important than caliber size. Heck, this combination is generally only beaten by random cases of good ol' dumb luck!
T.
venomballistics
Member
".40 Short & Wimpy"
consider this description stolen
"I've taken lots of deer with my S&W .44 Magnum . . . though I killed a buck a week ago with a broadside, through-the-heart shot from a 300 grain heavy bullet . . . and the "dead" deer ran 180 yards without pumping any blood at all. Go figure!"
300 grains, I feel are heavy for the task here ...
if your talking bear .. yeah its the go to freight train to load, but deer ... go on a diet and put some speed on it to generate some extra upset .. 220 - 240 seems a work of art that hand grenades well in the vitals then is too spent to destry meat on the other side. if ranges get out there I'll finesse a 276 grain cast HP to the promise land
consider this description stolen
"I've taken lots of deer with my S&W .44 Magnum . . . though I killed a buck a week ago with a broadside, through-the-heart shot from a 300 grain heavy bullet . . . and the "dead" deer ran 180 yards without pumping any blood at all. Go figure!"
300 grains, I feel are heavy for the task here ...
if your talking bear .. yeah its the go to freight train to load, but deer ... go on a diet and put some speed on it to generate some extra upset .. 220 - 240 seems a work of art that hand grenades well in the vitals then is too spent to destry meat on the other side. if ranges get out there I'll finesse a 276 grain cast HP to the promise land
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USAF385
US Veteran
Uncle Larry
US Veteran
Interesting discussion so far, lemme see if I can shorten it a bit..
1) "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
2) "A 9mm may expand, however, a 45 will never shrink"
3) " A long gun trumps a handgun"
And last, but not least...
4) "A 40 megaton thermonuclear device trumps all of the above..or...nuke 'em till they glow"
Seems simple to me....
but, in real life, it's what YOU shoot best and have confidence in.
1) "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
2) "A 9mm may expand, however, a 45 will never shrink"
3) " A long gun trumps a handgun"
And last, but not least...
4) "A 40 megaton thermonuclear device trumps all of the above..or...nuke 'em till they glow"
Seems simple to me....
but, in real life, it's what YOU shoot best and have confidence in.
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OP
anglaispierre
Member
That's cheating.
As tom said: "MY RESEARCH HAS PROVEN . . . (at least for me) THAT THE BEST HANDGUN ROUND . . . is the one that is currently on your PERSON when trouble comes!" How true.
Getting some interesting comments now. Poe, have you been there?
DeathGrip
US Veteran
I doubt it.Don't sweat the small stuff Allyn,He's probably just funning with you.Remember there are some in every crowd.
D.G.
OP
anglaispierre
Member
Think you're right DG. And I was going to ask which part.
Uncle, there's a lot of truth in your comments, even if it is slightly over-simplifying my original post.
As for "Adopt a retired Greyhound
" ........more useful than a retired politician.
I have just finished dinner. I keep hearing that a glass of red wine per day is good for the health. Therefore 2 must be even better. I had 2 1/2 because that was all that was left in the bottle. Just finishing the last drop now. Good health to all of you
Uncle, there's a lot of truth in your comments, even if it is slightly over-simplifying my original post.
As for "Adopt a retired Greyhound
" ........more useful than a retired politician.I have just finished dinner. I keep hearing that a glass of red wine per day is good for the health. Therefore 2 must be even better. I had 2 1/2 because that was all that was left in the bottle. Just finishing the last drop now. Good health to all of you
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