Need of advice on a good anti-dog round

[Texas Star]

I had a similar topic here awhile back. Got some good answers.

A brother had to shoot a neighbor's big mutt with the lead HP .38 load from a S&W M-60 snub. Hit in a shoulder without the bullet entering the body cavity, the dog dropped and crawled back into it's own yard. Police did not arrest or cite him. The dog was well known in the neighborhood as a menace. I wish the owners had been cited for harboring a dangerous animal, but it didn't happen.

I live and work where many well-to-do people keep big dogs that they let run off the leash. I hope never to have to shoot their dogs. The legal aftermath would probably be grim, but better than being bitten. A single dog bite can crush an ankle or wrist. If it gets to your throat, it's probably lights out for you.

I am not a fan of dogs that are irresponsibly kept.

Oh: I haven't had to shoot one yet, but did pull a knife on two on different occasions. They seemed to understand that they were in danger and left. Had i not drawn a knife, I'm sure they'd have been on me.

Keep in mind that Canadian singer who was killed by two coyotes about a week ago. Canids are dangerous. And are far too comon in cites, even in the best areas.

T-Star
P.S. Can anyone discuss the legal aspects of shooting a dog, especially in town?

 

[BreakerDan]

I have shot a dog with a handloaded 38 158 LSWC-HP
and it was lights out. Shot somewhere in the upper
neck/head.

If I was you, I would carry what you have or the
38 +P+ 147 Hydra Shok.

 

[perpster]

I stand corrected on OC spray effectiveness.

 

[ajpelz]

P.S. Can anyone discuss the legal aspects of shooting a dog, especially in town?

From what I know, NOT LEGAL ADVISE IN ANY WAY..... (disclaimer out of the way)

Most municipalities have ordinances that prohibit the discharging of a firearm within city limits. This pretty much screws you from the get go. That being said, I know in my city, several LEO have shot dogs that were on the loose if they felt they or someone else was in serious danger. A couple of rotties and pitbulls that I can remember off the top of my head. If it is a large, dangerous breed, and it is on the loose, you would probably be justified in taking it out, so long as it was on the attack, and there was not witnesses to claim the dog was just "walking down the sidewalk or road." There needs to be signs of aggression. Depending on the individual cop (they will almost certainly be called to the scene), they may, or may not cite you for discharging a firearm in the city limits. Equally unknown, the owner, may or may not file suit against you for the death of their property, (the law sees dogs as property) although they are unlikely to succeed in the suit if it was off leash and posing any threat to life or limb. That is not to say that YOU, the shooter, will not have to go through the time and expense of hiring a lawyer, answering the suit and defending your actions. Bottom line, IMHO you should only shoot a dog if it is REALLY ready to attack you, AND that attack would cause serious harm to you or a bystander that you really care about.

Hope that helps.

 

[nitesite]

I think a .357 Magnum 125-gr SJHP (such as the R357M1 that flop-shank mentioned) would be ideal.

OC on a breezy day could spell disaster if the cloud gets your wife and child.

My wife and I take our labrador for a 1-mile walk now and then, and out here in the country there are sometimes unrestrained dogs we encounter. Many are not that friendly when they see another dog, and we've been charged/threatened on several occasions. Some of these have been large breeds that are considered to be dangerous by virtue of their breed.

Sometimes there have been small packs of three or four (not owned by neighbors) and let me tell you, even a small pack seems like a huge number to deal with.

I've started carrying a sjambok as well as my sidearm. Oddly, either drawing back the sjambok to strike, or drawing my sidearm and yelling has so far been effective in stopping these encounters.

If I owned one, I might even carry one of these instead of the sjambok...

Oh, my dog-walking sidearm is a 17-shot GLOCK34 with hot handloads of 147-gr Hornady XTPs that do about 1150-fps.

 

[enfield]

Just as anecdotal evidence:

A cop incapacitated a pit bull in my yard (who was attacking my dog) with one round of 9 mm. The pit bull was still breathing so the cop asked me what I wanted to do. I asked him to shoot the pit again, and he did.

 

[safearm]

I posted my experiences with dogs in a thread awhile back. Basically, no handgun round can guarantee an immediate kill, or even a stop, with the possible exception of .44 magnum or larger. I've had to dispatch animals with a handgun and I've been lucky (yes, that's the correct word) that I've had a .45 each time (either .45 Colt with Fed 225 grain LHP or .45 ACP with Fed 230 grain HSHP) and that shot placement (cranium) was good enough to put them down. Only one died immediately; the others lingered for a few moments, but were no longer a threat.

 

[brucev]

I have been running, riding bicycles or walking since 1998. Each week I cover approx. 100 miles. Running or walking, I generally cover 50+ miles weekly. On the bicycle I do 15-20 mile rides. I have had to deal with extremely aggressive individual dogs on numerous occasions. On one occasion I had to deal with 6 at one time. Whatever you do, be extreme. If you use pepper spray, wasp spray, taser, handgun... be extreme. Do not in any way have any regard for what anyone else might think. Be extreme. Dogs are not humans. They are animals. If they put you in jeopardy, show no mercy. Be extreme. If you act quickly and with determination, you may possibly stop the attack from becoming a tragedy.

If you are harassed by a dog(s), call 911 immediately. Make sure it is reported to local law enforcement authorities. If you have a cell phone w/ camera capability, take photos of the dog(s). Make a written record (contemporaneous record)... dated, timed, signed. If the owner wants to use the legal system to try to injure you, these steps will greatly enhance your position. If you anticipate such problems with such a person, act first by asking the local prosecutor to bring charges against that person as well as acting yourself to bring a civil action.

Last year a very large heavily muscled bulldog bolted off his owners front porch and violently attacked while I was walking my pointer (Molly) to the local Post Office. He was doing everything he could to kill Molly. Because I had no weapon at hand, I kicked the dog just as hard as I possibly could in the ribs right behind the left front leg (I was wearing a pair of Danner Ft. Lewis boots) and stopped the attack. The owner hollered, "Don't hurt my dog!" He then jumped off the porch and came at me with an aggressive posture. I squared up to him and he checked his actions. If I had not kicked his dog, his dog would have certainly severely injured or killed my dog. I repeat, if attacked, whatever you do, don't be delicate... be as extreme as you possibly can. The moment a dog attacks you or any other person it ceases to be a "pet." The foregoing is based on my own personal experience learned as a result of 5 occasions when I have dealt with violent dogs. Sincerely. brucev.

 

[ajpelz]

I have been running, riding bicycles or walking since 1998. Each week I cover approx. 100 miles. Running or walking, I generally cover 50+ miles weekly. On the bicycle I do 15-20 mile rides. I have had to deal with extremely aggressive individual dogs on numerous occasions. On one occasion I had to deal with 6 at one time. Whatever you do, be extreme. If you use pepper spray, wasp spray, taser, handgun... be extreme. Do not in any way have any regard for what anyone else might think. Be extreme. Dogs are not humans. They are animals. If they put you in jeopardy, show no mercy. Be extreme. If you act quickly and with determination, you may possibly stop the attack from becoming a tragedy.

If you are harassed by a dog(s), call 911 immediately. Make sure it is reported to local law enforcement authorities. If you have a cell phone w/ camera capability, take photos of the dog(s). Make a written record (contemporaneous record)... dated, timed, signed. If the owner wants to use the legal system to try to injure you, these steps will greatly enhance your position. If you anticipate such problems with such a person, act first by asking the local prosecutor to bring charges against that person as well as acting yourself to bring a civil action.

Last year a very large heavily muscled bulldog bolted off his owners front porch and violently attacked while I was walking my pointer (Molly) to the local Post Office. He was doing everything he could to kill Molly. Because I had no weapon at hand, I kicked the dog just as hard as I possibly could in the ribs right behind the left front leg (I was wearing a pair of Danner Ft. Lewis boots) and stopped the attack. The owner hollered, "Don't hurt my dog!" He then jumped off the porch and came at me with an aggressive posture. I squared up to him and he checked his actions. If I had not kicked his dog, his dog would have certainly severely injured or killed my dog. I repeat, if attacked, whatever you do, don't be delicate... be as extreme as you possibly can. The moment a dog attacks you or any other person it ceases to be a "pet." The foregoing is based on my own personal experience learned as a result of 5 occasions when I have dealt with violent dogs. Sincerely. brucev.

+1. Watch the dog whisperer on National Geographic Channel. Dogs do not rationalize. There are no half-hearted attacks. It is either 100% or nothing. The only way to prevent an attack is to convince the dog that if it continues, it will not live. Hopefully you do not have to make good on the threat, but you must be sincere and confidant in the fact that you will take that dog out if need be.

About two years ago, one of the guard dogs that come in at night to protect a local electrical supply yard was on the loose. I was walking my dog with my wife, and it saw us. It charged immediately. Knowing to show no fear, and certainly do not retreat or run, (thank you Cesar Milan) I stepped forward, made myself appear as big as possible, (not that hard as I am 6'2" about 275). I then made an aggressive move toward the dog as if to say, "I am coming after you, you mutt." The dog stopped dead in its tracks, turned around, and walked back towards his yard. From start to finish, the encounter lasted no longer than 3-5 seconds. I was carrying, but never even drew my weapon. I would have certainly kicked the dog first but would not have hesitated to send him to doggy heaven had the need arose. My dog is a 100 pound German Shepherd, and probably could have held her own, but now, I have an 11 month old baby that we walk with, and feel now that I would probably draw immediately.

As people who carry often already know, nothing can beat situational awareness, and having part of your mind going through scenarios all the time of what you would do in different circumstances. This way, when something really does go down, instincts are likely to kick in and take over, and you will not be froze in the moment. I know this worked for me.

I am the biggest dog lover around, but there is no place in this world for large aggressive dogs to be loose in society. I would hate to do it, but I would kill one in an instant if need be. The sad thing is that it is not their fault, but the fault of irresponsible owners that do not care enough for their pets to prevent these situations from arising.

My dog's name is Molly also.

 

[moosedog]

Part of the problem with shooting a dog is that it is usually in a urban area which means a lot of hard surfaces and people, including your children.
I don't know how old your children are, but little kids really don't enjoy seeing dad kill a dog, let alone hearing an up close gun shot without hearing protection.
I'd go with the OC spray.

 

[user]

First thing that occurred to me is that the 19-4 isn't made to handle +P ammunition. Standard factory loads in .357 with bullets of at least 158 grain will be least likely to cause damage to the gun.

I'd carry the SP101 with .38+P, myself. I can't control such a tiny gun with .357 magnum cartridges in it. You need a fast, light bullet in order to have the flattest trajectory possible, as the target is likely to be moving.

My approach to dealing with dogs has (since I delivered the Washington Post as a kid) always been to walk firmly directly toward the dog, staring the dog in the eyes visualizing exactly how I would rip the dog's legs off and beat him over the head with his own bloody legs, and absolutely confident that this is exactly what I was going to do. Never had a problem with dogs.

 

[flat top]

This is an interesting thread! It seems to me that the real problem here is the dog owners, and the local authorities. I would first off pursue those issues, and see if something positive could come from that. Most municipalities have laws now that prohibit free running animals. Those laws should be inforced for the well being of the animals and the citizenry!!!

Many years ago, I trained commercial attack dogs, police, and dope dogs for a living. If a dog is well trained he fears nothing, but, his actions are predictable within the realm of his training. The "untrained" hoodlum dog that roams the streets looking for trouble is unpredictable. His course of action is not ruled by training but by his own perception and reaction to a set of circumstances. It is very hard for an untrained individual to "read" an untrained dogs motives, and therein lies a problem. Sometimes a dog that puts on a big show of force followed by a false charge, would not bite his own fleas, and other dogs that would look submissive, and approach with wagging tail, would do you harm. In some cases even a trained professional would have to look twice to figure out exactly what an untrained dogs intentions are. When time is of the essence we make our decisions based on the "fear" factor, and those decisions are not always correct for the situation at hand. We cannot just walk the streets shooting dogs because we "think" that they intended to do us harm....then again, we have every right to walk the streets in safety.

As I stated above, my first course of action would be the local authorities, and if you intend on walking a suitable deterent spray should be your first means of defense, then followed up by a handgun, but, only as a last resort. If the local authorities do thier job neither will be needed for dogs...........but, of course, then there are the two-legged hoodlums that roam the streets and that is a whole nuther' story.

 

[brucev]

"If the local authorities do thier job neither will be needed for dogs...........but, of course, then there are the two-legged hoodlums that roam the streets and that is a whole nuther' story."

Precisely correct. Less than 100 yds. up my otherwise very quiet street is a home with a small (+/- 125'x125') yard in which the owner has 13 dogs of various sizes. Several of these dogs are extremely aggressive. Periodically she allows some of the dogs that she considers well-behaved to leave the backyard and run around in the area. She does not seem to understand that she has a responsibility to control her animals. In our small town the local public officials are unwilling to do anything with regard to a local dog ordinance. In a recent conversation regarding an upcoming community festival she expressed concern that so many people walking up and down the streets might cause her dogs to get upset. She was also very upset that someone had thrown some sort of poison into her backyard causing several of her "puppies" to get sick.

 

[Calaveras Slim]

I once shot a Shepard between the eyes with a Colt 1911. Knocked him arse over tea kettle. Bullet never penetrated the skull. Had to go and put a round in his ear to finish the job.

I think a 357 or hotter would work if the bullet was placed right.

Me, I carry a 44 special or 45 Colt when in the woods or where dogs may be. Solid slugs rather than HPs.

 

[flat top]

brucev; A fella I worked with had a problem with his neighbors dogs trying to bite his young children...in his own yard!!! He talked to the neighbor, and it did no good. He called the police, and it did no good. He had his lawyer write a letter to the mayor informing him that if anything happened to his children, because of the townships failure to uphold and enforce the law, that "they" (the fella I work with and his lawyer) would take them to court.....evidently, he said it worked. The dogs no longer roam free. I am totally behind law enforcement and realize that in most cases they have thier hands full with more serious problems, but law enforcement takes its directives from the politicians, and those are the folks that need to be impressed that matters as you have described, are not only a nuisance, but a health hazard as well...not to mention that if one of the more agressive dogs got out that a child could be harmed.

 

[Dogguy]

As noted above, dogs are not the problem--it's the irresponsible, moronic, insufferably gawdawful stupid owners.

So use the pepper spray on the dog and save the ammo for the owner.

 

[conchmariner]

There was a guy in my CCW class who asked about this. The answer was that you have to be real careful about shooting a dog, to the point of almost having to wait until an attack is in progress. As someone pointed out, many dogs will charge and bark, but not arrack. If you shoot somebody's pet in such a situation, you could be in for a world of legal hurt, to say nothing of the social stigma attached to a pet killer.

 

[cotton]

I like dogs too.. but dont like getting bit.. I have had 3 large mean dogs very intent on biting me completly change their mind after a blast of pepper spray... also cured them of chasing bike riders...

 

[Faulkner]

Those of you who are advising pepper spray are offering advise that is hit and miss at best. As a deputy sheriff in a rural county I deal with dogs a lot and I would say OC is only about 50% effective on them. I've sprayed dogs that it was totally effective, others that it only somewhat affected them, and others that had no affect at all.

I've never used the OC that is specifically designed for animals so I have no input on that.

Besides shooting them, which I'm not against, what does work very effectively at detering aggresive dogs is a fire extinguisher. For several years we have been issued two fire extinguishers in our patrol cars, one for fires and one for dogs, and I've used one a number of times with excellant success.

 

[DeadAye]

...what does work very effectively at detering aggresive dogs is a fire extinguisher.

I was wondering - Which type of extinguisher?
OTOH... I don't have a problem with dogs when I'm in my car and would have a hard time getting to an extinguisher when riding either a bike or motorcycle or walking. Getting to a snubby is easy though
I was bit by a German Shepard type dog 50 years ago and am still having problems with one of the bites. I love dogs but will not be bit again, nor will I allow an aggressive dog to harm someone else......... A dog bite can last forever!
One can only carry so much personal protection stuff. I prefer a .38.