Finally got our new duty .40 ammo

[sigp220.45]

A meager supply of our new duty .40 ammunition finally made it out to Indian Country. I shot a qualification course with it, and the recoil was noticeably more stout out of my little Model 27 than our old 165 grain Gold Dots.

Its very accurate and cycled the baby Glock with gusto. I like it.

 

[Spotteddog]

And we thank you sir!
It's a load I know nearly nothing about. And every bit of info about is devoured, I assure you!

 

[flop-shank]

Not my favorite weight and especially not from a short barrel. That said I'll bet that load overcomes the obstacles and works well. Most important of all, does it shoot to POA?

FWIW, sir, I hope you or your colleagues never need it.

 

[armsmaster270]

News and Press Releases

Winchester Awarded Dept. of Homeland Security Contract

Winchester Ammunition
8/21/2009
Winchester® Ammunition was recently awarded a contract by the Immigration, Customs and Enforcement (ICE) division of the Department of Homeland Security to supply a maximum of 200 million, 40 cal. rounds over the next five years.

"Winchester has a proud tradition of providing high quality ammunition to our nation's law enforcement agencies," said Dick Hammett, president, Winchester Ammunition. "No matter if they're protecting our block, our city or our borders, each special agent is an invaluable resource and we are committed to giving them the best products available."

The load selected for this contract is a 135-grain, hollow point designed for the office of Field Operations of Customs and Border Protection. It will fall under the Winchester® Ranger® line of products.

For more information about Winchester Ammunition and its complete line of products visit Winchester.

My agency issued the Ranger SXT 180's

 

[SWAT Lt.]

Glad to hear the new ammo finally made its way to your field office. I have fired a small quantity of it, and I like the 180 grain Q4355 round. I prefer it to the 165 GD the Bureau used to issue. It should be capable of doing anything a handgun round can reasonably be expected to do, and I would have full confidence carrying it. Of the guns/calibers approved by the Bureau, I would opt for the Glock .40 and the Q4355 if I were a S/A.

I am issued the 155 grain Federal Tactical Bonded ammunition in .40 caliber which has worked well in many departmental OISs. That said, I prefer the 180 grain bullets in .40 caliber.

 

[Gunhacker]

I was wondering how well it shoots... just had a case of 500 delivered last week but haven't made it to the range yet. It will be interesting to compare the felt recoil difference with my G22 and 4006.

 

[sigp220.45]

The tribal cops have had this load for a while, and I've worked two of their shootings with it. Both were cases where the cops were shooting occupants of a vehicle. In one, the killing shot came through the windshield, took a bite out of the steering wheel, and plowed into the guy's chest. In the other the cop got the guy in the gourd from the side through the window glass. Both were DBTW (dead behind the wheel) when I got there. There were a bunch of rounds fired in both cases, and all the ones we recovered kept their jackets and appeared to be close to their original weight.

 

[Hog-Sniper]

Thats odd...The 180 usually seems more controllable in the 40..I wonder if the small size of the Glock is making it jump more for you..The 165 has a rep of barking and jumping abit more....The 180 seems to be the new standard with departments.

 

[Andy Griffith]

I always thought that the 165gr. was the one that was the "softest" shooting of the .40's...medium velocity I always believed.

The 180 grainers are good stuff, and I don't even own a .40 right now.

 

[David Sinko]

What is the real world velocity of this stuff? The Speer 180 gr. GDHP does only 998 FPS from our Sig 229s. Penetration of this bullet at this velocity has been nothing to brag about in our shootings. I shot some Speer 165 gr. GDHP over the chrono and was shocked to see that the velocity was the same, actually a few FPS lower. As far as I'm concerned, the .40 S&W lacks velocity and would never be my first choice out on the street, at least not with expanding bullets.

Dave Sinko

 

[flop-shank]

David, I've never really gotten fully up to speed on the .40 S&W, so this is only a guess. My hunch is that the slow 165 gr. load you mentioned above is a medium velocity offering. My understanding is that the 155 and 165 gr. loads in .40 can top 1100 fps. in their better offerings.

FWIW, I agree with your opinion on those slow-poke loads.

 

[David Sinko]

The 165 gr. GDHPs were given to me about three years ago by an FBI agent who was practicing with me at my local range. I was complaining about how my department wouldn't give me a spare box of ammo so that I could carry my Glock 35 loaded to and from the matches without unloading my duty gun. He felt sorry for me and gave me one of the many boxes he had with him for practice. I assume this was their standard issue duty ammo. And they loaded this to two different velocity levels? Well, why not... Since we use Reduced Recoil buckshot, Reduced Recoil .40 is the next logical progression in the series. Why would anybody want to water down the .40 S&W for "improved performance?"

Dave Sinko

 

[flop-shank]

Dave, there's a podcast at proarmspodbean.com where veteran police officer and multiple gunfight winner Keith Jones discusses the .40 S&W in pretty good detail as well as much more. The interview is conducted by our fellow forumite Massad Ayoob. I think Keith talked about medium velocity ammo in that caliber. As I recall, he was no fan of it either. Having seen how well the full power 125 gr. .357 worked for his agency in the '70s and '80s, he likes velocity and likes handgun cartridges that top 1100 fps. In .40 cal. he likes full throttle 155 and 165 gr. loads IIRC.

 

[sigp220.45]

The Bureau's first .40 load was the 165 grain Hydra-Shok, followed by the 165 grain Gold Dot (which seemed a little snappier than the HS to me). I think we switched to the bonded 180 to get better windshield penetration since many of our shootings involve vehicles.

The Bu's approach to ammunition selection is refreshingly pragmatic. They shoot it through the various mediums and if it expands and penetrates to 12 inches in the jelly while showing acceptable accuracy they figure it will put the lights out on a bad guy. From what I've seen this is as good a way as any, and probably better than most.

I've seen three guys who were shot with this load - the dead gents noted above, and a guy who had the misfortune to be sitting next to one of the above departed. He got a solid shot to the upper arm for his troubles, and it definitely took the starch out of him. I think we've had a couple of other shootings with this load elsewhere in the country, and as far as I know it has performed equally well.

My main gun is my .45 and I have the utmost faith in the 230 grain Golden Sabers in it, but I have no doubt my little Glock with these loads will also get the job done.

And since the price is right and I have to carry what they give me anyway I don't really dwell on it.

 

[MKT]

I had been hoping that we would get to ride on the feebees coat tails and get some of the 180 grain Win too. We've always been issued the 155 grain stuff since converting to the .40 S&W. I see where one poster below your initial post cut and pasted something about us going to a 135 grainer. Our 155's are smoking right along at 1200 FPS IIRC, but haven't shown to be that much more of a stopper than the 147gr Silver Tip .357's we used to carry. The wife's agency gets issued 180 grain Win and it is really smooth shooting stuff, not mini rockets like our 155's.

 

[armsmaster270]

I had been hoping that we would get to ride on the feebees coat tails and get some of the 180 grain Win too. We've always been issued the 155 grain stuff since converting to the .40 S&W. I see where one poster below your initial post cut and pasted something about us going to a 135 grainer. Our 155's are smoking right along at 1200 FPS IIRC, but haven't shown to be that much more of a stopper than the 147gr Silver Tip .357's we used to carry. The wife's agency gets issued 180 grain Win and it is really smooth shooting stuff, not mini rockets like our 155's.

I cut & pasted that from Winchester's L.E. site it was their press release. As yet there is no info posted on the load as to Velocity, penetration or expansion. I use the 180's used by my Dept & the Sheriff's Dept.

 

[BigRich315]

I've been awaiting for gel tests of the 180gr Win PDX1 but still finding nothing. It's almost enough to scare me away from the load if the Bureau hadn't adopted it. It shoots accurately for me but I'm in the dark for terminal ballistics. I'm sticking with standard SXT's for now in my M&P40c, and I just recieved a couple boxes of HST to try out.

I'm also a little confused about the difference in SXT Bonded and PDX1, if any. My PDX are identical to my standard SXT except for a shallower hollow point. For expansion I would prefer a deeper vault. Where do the bonded SXT stand in comparison?

 

[MKT]

I cut & pasted that from Winchester's L.E. site it was their press release. As yet there is no info posted on the load as to Velocity, penetration or expansion. I use the 180's used by my Dept & the Sheriff's Dept.

Thanks for the info on where you found that. I was doing the speed read thing and didn't pay attention to who even posted (or I'd have given credit to you). I'll have to get in touch with my Academy Staff contacts and see if they've heard about a pending ammo change for us. 135 grains seems kind of light to me. The rumor from my DC contacts was we were looking at the 180 grain Win as well.

I used to sort of joke that the Government issued us ammo that was designed and guaranteed to provide a large settlement to the shootee.

 

[armsmaster270]

Your right it does seem to be a little light I would like to see the Terminal Ballistics on it before recommending it, till then I'll stick with 180SXT's or 165's

 

[MKT]

Well, thought I'd post an update.

Last Thursday I received word we'll be changing over to the 180 grain .40. The rumor of 135 grain stuff was just that, a rumor. When I qualified on Friday I was told that we should be receiving the new ammo sometime in the second quarter. The range staff also talked about how the new ammo should be easier on the guns because the mini-rocket 155 grain stuff has been beating the guns in recoil. We've been having less problems with the H&K's than we did with the Berettas but they are taking a beating.

Supposedly, the new ammo will be easier to qualify with, especially for those who are recoil sensitive (which seems to be just about everyone coming out of the Academy these days).