.44 Mag + Cast Bullets = lots of leading for me

[Bearcat74]

Hey guys, excellent site, been a lurker for awhile. I have a 29-2 and a 629-5 Mountain Gun that I would like to shoot cast from, mainly the Mt Gun. It shoots 240gr jacketed bullets excellent, cast is bad because of leading. I have tried bullseye, Unique, and 2400 with numerous charges with some type of commercial cast and I ordered some Mount Baldy 250gr Keith bullets and I get leading every time. The bullseye load doesn't lead as bad, but it still leads up after 10-15 rounds, the Mount Baldy bullets, I get smeared lead after 1 shot. According to my measurements my throats are .4295", for the guys who shot cast in the S&W's, how do you do it?? I really wanted to get the Mt Gun for a deer/hog packing pistol with the hopes of cast but right now I am using the 240XTP and the Nosler 240 JSP.


Thanks

 

[jrplourde]

This is a broad brush answer. I don't load for the 44 but what you have there is to soft a bullet with to high pressure/velocity. Mt. Baldy is a soft bullet by design for the older large chamber throats revolvers.

Try talking to Bob Palermo at Penn Bullets.com. He'll be all over you situation and will set you straight with the right bullet. He is a gem to deal with.

Bob

 

[dave b]

Sounds like a size problem. Maybe the cyl is sizing them smaller than the bbl. Or they are too small to start with. Slug your bbl or have a gunsmith do it. Bullets should be about .001 or.002 larger than the groove dia. If the cyl is smaller than the bbl, have them reamed to correct size.

 

[Bearcat74]

I forgot to mention I fired a cheap cast with 6grs of 2400 into phone books, actually not really into them as it bounced back and smacked me in the shin, but anyway. I have the slug and from the reading I have done Smith uses a 5 groove barrel and it is really difficult to read the slug with just calipers. I have tried and I keep getting .427, I am pretty sure that is wrong.

 

[jchapm9]

Lube your cast bullets!

 

[Rule3]

I went to the Mt Baldy website. Which bullet are you using? The listing under 'smokeless" lists a BHN of 18 which should be hard enough.

 

[Dan Cash]

You have a size problem unless you are using some insane propellant charge. I can drive unlimited numbers of 265 grain soft cast bullets over 15-16 grains of 2400 with no leading from my 29-2. I have gone up to 19 grains but don't enjoy the beating.
Regards,
Dan

 

[deputydon]

It's possible that you have a barrel that needs to be lapped. I have had occasions where that helped. I use a gas check bullet when I shoot cast bullets in my 29. Its a little more trouble, but I don't have any leading problems.

-Don

 

[Andy Griffith]

Undersized bullet, not enough or wrong lube, too high a velocity or something not right with the cylinder throats.

The leading isn't caused because the bullet is scooting, it is caused by gas cutting- the hot gases are being able to get around the base of the bullet and are acting like a blow torch!

I have gotten great results from cast bullets in the .430 to .432 range, but finding a good mould that throws this large can be a problem too- I always got my bullets from a friend that cast them...but now I've taken up casting and finding the right moulds can be like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack!

 

[Bearcat74]

They are lubed.

I am using the Mount Baldy bullets for revolvers - 11BHN bullets sized at .430"


I have used everything from 15-20grs of 2400 and 7.0-10.0grs of Unique and a massive dose of 5.0-6.0grs of Bullseye. The leading is usually the first 1-2" of barrel from the forcing cone up, the cone has been recut and smoothed out also, I had my smith recut it to a better angle and he polished it out smooth.

Should I try gas checked bullets?

 

[S&WIowegan]

This isn't a difficult problem

You are using too soft of a bullet for the powder charges you're using. That Mt. Baldy bullet is soft and will perform best with a fast powder like Bullseye at around 750 fps. If you want to shoot hotter loads you need a true hard cast bullet (widely available). Gas checks are fine but not necessary if you stay below 1,200 fps.

There are two fundamental causes of leading: 1. Soft bullets going too fast; and 2. Hard cast bullets going too slow. All the other ideas mentioned in this thread are only useful after you've paid heed to rules 1 and 2.

 

[Alk8944]

I forgot to mention I fired a cheap cast with 6grs of 2400 into phone books, actually not really into them as it bounced back and smacked me in the shin, but anyway. I have the slug and from the reading I have done Smith uses a 5 groove barrel and it is really difficult to read the slug with just calipers. I have tried and I keep getting .427, I am pretty sure that is wrong.

Bearcat,

To find out what you need to know you don't have to actually measure it. There are two things to check, an un-fired bullet in the cylinder throats is first. A bullet should pass through the throat with little or no resistance, but not too loose. Second, slug your barrel and try the slug in the throats. You will need a quite soft bullet to do this as it needs to be able to expand to fit the barrel. Once you have a slug try it in the throats. This should also pass through the throats but can have slightly more resistance which indicates the groove diameter and throat diameters are close. If the slug won't fit the throats then they are tighter than the barrel and need to be opened up.

There are several reasons people have with commercial cast bullets. Most are sized to nominal diameters, .44 bullets typically .429. This is actually too small for many revolvers and there is gas blowby. Another problem is most of the lubes on commercial bullets are more intended to be pretty and stay on the bullets during handling instead of being chosen for their lubricating qualities. Finally, most commercial cast bullets are entirely too hard for revolvers. Many are 20 Brinell or harder. Except for the very highest pressure loads a hardness of 12-15 Brinell is better than harder.

Here are three things to do. First, after determining if the bore or throats are larger and the throats enlarged if needed, slug the throats and measure the slug. Order bullets from a company which lets you select the sizing diameter and order bullets no more than .001 smaller than your throats. Second, if they don't use a soft lubricant, but a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox and tumble lube the bullets before loading. Third, settle for loads in the 25-30,000 PSI range and velocities not more than 1250 FPS. Chances are you will be a lot happier with cast bullets.

 

[MonteInAnchorage]

I've seen later production 629s with chamber throats as tight as .428.....my quick solution is ream those throats to .431. Coincidentally the size used in the early 4 & 5 screw .44 Maggies

 

[Tell Sackett]

I wouldn't do anything to the gun. It is much easier to do stuff to the bullets.

I shoot Keith and 200gr LRNFP bullets from my 629 5" bbl with no leading at all. I cast my own too and in that regard you are hampered. You are at the mercy of someone else when it comes to alloy, harness, lube and size, I'm not.

You need to answer some questions first before I can make any suggestions. You said the bullets you have are 18bhn(or someone did). What is the Bullseye load? How fast do you want to drive these bullets, what velocity are you trying to achieve?

I want you to ask yourself this one question: "Why is the Bullseye load the one that leads the least?"

The biggest cause of leading with CAST bullets is not too much velocity, but too little pressure. Folks try to get a paper punching round with too hard of a bullet. Throw in that it may not fit the bore and VIOLA you have a leading mess.

I have known lots of folks that get leading with purchased bullets at 800fps and with the same ones get none at 1000fps.

If it was me, and you need to be especially thankful you aren't me, I would push those babies just a little harder.

6gr of 2400 isn't a published load anywhere that I know of for the 44Mag. Where did you get it?

What manual are you using to get your load from?

I think I gave you enough questions to answer.

 

[Bearcat74]

I wouldn't do anything to the gun. It is much easier to do stuff to the bullets.

I shoot Keith and 200gr LRNFP bullets from my 629 5" bbl with no leading at all. I cast my own too and in that regard you are hampered. You are at the mercy of someone else when it comes to alloy, harness, lube and size, I'm not.

You need to answer some questions first before I can make any suggestions. You said the bullets you have are 18bhn(or someone did). What is the Bullseye load? How fast do you want to drive these bullets, what velocity are you trying to achieve?

I want you to ask yourself this one question: "Why is the Bullseye load the one that leads the least?"

The biggest cause of leading with CAST bullets is not too much velocity, but too little pressure. Folks try to get a paper punching round with too hard of a bullet. Throw in that it may not fit the bore and VIOLA you have a leading mess.

I have known lots of folks that get leading with purchased bullets at 800fps and with the same ones get none at 1000fps.

If it was me, and you need to be especially thankful you aren't me, I would push those babies just a little harder.

6gr of 2400 isn't a published load anywhere that I know of for the 44Mag. Where did you get it?

What manual are you using to get your load from?

I think I gave you enough questions to answer.

The bullseye load was commercial cast over 5-6grs, both shot good until leading, bullet was a 240gr SWC. It was a plinker and a favorite of Elmer Keith. Velocity didn't matter because it was going to be a paper masher. I figured it leaded the least because it was slow.

The Mt. Baldy bullets were rated to 1500fps 11BHN with no gas check, that is from the maker. I was wanting 1000-1100fps, no need to go crazy. I figure when I worked my way up to 20grs of 2400 that would certainly be in that range, or better. Mt. Baldy recommended 10grs of Unique or 20-21grs of 2400.

The 6grs of 2400 was to simply push a bullet out of the barrel so it would be slugged and I would not have to dig deep into the books to get it back, no way in the world was that for anything but that one slug.

I have a Speer, Hornady, 2 Noslers, a Lee, and a Sierra manual, I have went to the powder manufactures websites, I have contacted bullet companies all for load data. Plus, reading online for loads.

 

[shortrange]

Pressure determines alloy hardness more than velocity. Learn to cast your own bullets and alloy your own metal to the hardness you need. Hard lube looks good and stays with the bullet, but doesnt perform so great. Try some Lee liquid Alox, it works wonders.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I have used everything from 15-20grs of 2400 and 7.0-10.0grs of Unique and a massive dose of 5.0-6.0grs of Bullseye. The leading is usually the first 1-2" of barrel from the forcing cone up, the cone has been recut and smoothed out also, I had my smith recut it to a better angle and he polished it out smooth.

I believe your loads are not heavy enough, or your bullets are too hard...with a caveat: I think your throats are sizing the bullet down too much, and you don't have enough pressure to cause the bullet to obturate to the bore until it's well into the barrel. Softer bullets and/or more pressure is the fix.

I had this same issue with my RCBS 44-250-K and 7 grain of Bullseye. I was water dropping the bullets, making them too hard. Softer bullets (aircooled) resolved the issue immediately.

I'd suggest checking you chamber throats. If they size down the bullet WAY too much, then it doesn't matter what bullet you use short of a hollow base, they're not going to slug up well.

 

[whelenshooter]

I've never used Mt. Baldy bullets, so I don't know much about them. Is the bullet you are using a true Keith design with a flat base, or is it a pseudo-Keith bullet that many commercial cast outfits sell that have a bevel base? I've found that bevel base bullets ALWAYS lead. (Hot gas gets in between the beveled base and the barrel and melts the edge of the base depositing it on your barrel.) Flat base bullets usually don't lead if they are of the proper diameter, proper hardness (softer if you are pushing them slow, and harder if you are pushing them fast) and have a good (meaning SOFT) lube. Lube that seems like a hard wax (crayon-like) usually doesn't work very well. Also, are you SURE that the stuff you are seeing in your barrel is lead? I've known people who have mistaken lube streaks in the barrel for leading. Like someone else in this thread said, if your cylinder throats are smaller than your barrel diameter, you are going to have an awful hard time getting your gun to not lead unless you open your cylinder throats up to groove diameter or 0.001" larger. Also, how smooth is your barrel? Some guns with lots of tooling marks in the barrel tend to lead. If this is the problem, you can try fire-lapping your barrel.

 

[flat top]

Bearcat: Most (not all) revolvers will lead the barrel the first few inches of rifling. This is caused by the torqueing of the barrel into the reciever. The torqueing (stress) creates a restriction in the bore of .0001 to as much as .005 in some guns just beyond the forcing cone. Also, roll engraving (warning stamps, logos and such), and areas where sights are mounted, dovetails cut, etc, can cause the same types of restrictions. This is normal to the manufacture of most guns. I shoot only cast bullets at mid range to higher velocities. If I have a barrel that is exhibiting leading, I usually hand lap or firelap the barrel, but, keep in mind that all the information stated by others (above) is also necessary to cast bullet accuracy and reduced leading. If you go to: beartoothbullets.com, you can contact Marshall Stanton. He has put together a firelapping kit with explicit instructions. I have used this kit on a number of occasions with excellent results. I sure saves time, and one heck of a lot of elbow grease!!! The only other alternative is to shoot a FMJ type of bullet. Sierra makes a very nice fully jacketed truncated cone 44 bullet of 250 grains that would perform very well for the purpose you are looking for, and would act just as a hard cast does when meeting flesh and bone....one big hole in...one big hole out! Good Luck!

 

[Tell Sackett]

Bear,
Thanks for the response. Let me see if I can help. One thing I forgot that was mentioned by Vanilla is throat to bore size differences. If the throats are smaller than the bore, you got troubles no matter what you do with the bullets. I doubt that is the problem but, hey, it's possible.

If those bullets are 11BHN and are .001" to .003" bigger than your throats/bore you should be able to get a load that doesn't lead.

As far as bevel based bullets go, I drive them in a Marlin 1894CB in 357Mag in excess of 1800fps with virtually no leading, some flakes after 50 rounds but easily cleaned with a standard brush and wet patches.

The powders you have should give good results with cast bullets.

Here is a picture of what Keith said about Sixgun Loads:

Now you will notice that he doesn't say too much about a Bullseye load for the 44Mag, special yes, and there may be more information available elsewhere to that regard, I'm not sure.

Try this though, if you will. Check the size of the bullets. Do they fall through the cylinder throats? Is all of the copper fouling out of the bore? Even though it is not seen, it can reek havoc with lead bullets. If you are sure that it is all out, let me give you a suggestion. Take the maximum load of Bullseye for that bullet and caliber and run about 50 round of it down that firearm.

If the bullets are big/soft enough, the Bullseye load will generated the highest pressure in the shortest amount of time which should cause the bullet to obturate and seal off the gases.

Have you ever heard of Lee Liquid Alox? There have been folks that coat their "store bought" bullets in it to keep leading from happening when shooting "gallery" loads. You may want to do the same.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted.