New guy with a "burned" model 29 needs advice..

[Pontiaker]

To wrap up my opinion,

1) Can it be fixed? By the right person, yes.
2) Will it cost more than the gun is worth? Probably,yes.
3) Is it worth doing? Thats completely up to the owner and how important it is to him and his family.

Personally I would be happy to buy it for $100 and fix it myself. I think it would come out great.

After hardness testing it might not even need the frame or cylinder to be heat treated. New springs and a few other parts and it might be good to go. After heat treat the metal is actually too hard and brittle so its gets tempered to get the hardness and durablity you need from the steel for working pressures of the gun. Temper is done normally between 400-700deg for most tool steels.If this was originally tempered at 700deg the heat treat is probably still intact, again in needs to be checked and its easy to do this with the right tools.I also bet the sight insert would melt at under 250deg if not less, not a good way to judge the rest of the gun.Good luck with whatever you decide.
Matt

 

[Beemerguy53]

Interesting thread...Here's my two cents' worth...

1. Whether this revolver can be repaired or not, it would likely cost more to repair it than to buy another one.

2. It's interesting reading the responses on here from those on both sides of this issue. I don't know whether it can be repaired or not, but I do know if it was my gun, I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting it.

3. The fire damage is now part of that 29's history, and part of the story that goes along with it. I would let it be for that reason as well...

4. I appreciate now more than ever the value of fire liners in gunsafes...

 

[kritter]

really.....

ok some points here....

can it be fixed? yes,, probally,,,,by S&W ?... NO, they wouln't touch it.
would it be worth the cost?.... probally not..sentimental value..maybe.

tempering steel..if needed... try between 300 to 1500 degrees,then holding it at an applacable temprature to stabilize the steel..

even for the .44 special your in a working range of 15,000+ psi. the .44 mag 36,000+ psi..... or a nice hand gernade if somethings wrong with the heat treatment...

So the advice of "hanging it on a wall",,really isn't comming from a collectors standpoint.. more from a cost ~vs~ replacement value, however it is still your choice....

my opinion would be if I was to rebuild would be to contact one of the firearms restorers that does fire damage firearms and has the proper tools & know how to test and possably re-heat-treat the weapon,If needed.... however...be prepared for cost..... turnbull restorations comes to mind..or.. it would look nice hanging on the wall...

finally...... the quote ..

" wish a real gunsmith would come in here and let you guys know its not a big deal."

Well,,,yes there has been some on here. and, they have given their opinion...

as for me, on restoring fire damaged guns.......

I have a little experience...

 

[Pontiaker]

ok some points here....

can it be fixed? yes,, probally,,,,by S&W ?... NO, they wouln't touch it.
would it be worth the cost?.... probally not..sentimental value..maybe.

tempering steel..if needed... try between 300 to 1500 degrees,then holding it at an applacable temprature to stabilize the steel..

even for the .44 special your in a working range of 15,000+ psi. the .44 mag 36,000+ psi..... or a nice hand gernade if somethings wrong with the heat treatment...

So the advice of "hanging it on a wall",,really isn't comming from a collectors standpoint.. more from a cost ~vs~ replacement value, however it is still your choice....

my opinion would be if I was to rebuild would be to contact one of the firearms restorers that does fire damage firearms and has the proper tools & know how to test and possably re-heat-treat the weapon,If needed.... however...be prepared for cost..... turnbull restorations comes to mind..or.. it would look nice hanging on the wall...

finally...... the quote ..

" wish a real gunsmith would come in here and let you guys know its not a big deal."

Well,,,yes there has been some on here. and, they have given their opinion...

as for me, on restoring fire damaged guns.......

I have a little experience...

I pretty much agree with everything you mention as stated above. I have access to Rockwell tester and know how to use it.Heat treating all the different steels and alloys is WAY more complicated than any of the heat treating on that 29....Would be a fun project.

You showed that pic now show us the after pics of the ones that were saved! Sucks seeing nice stuff burned up like that.

 

[StingrayG4]

Better to go to a professional than a collectors forum and listen to a bunch of guys that just dont know what their talking about.

As I said, I was only expressing my opinion. Same as you, only I wasn't being so condescending.

-S

 

[Dregg]

I have mixed feelings on the subject but......since S&W will not work on the gun, i'm all for making it a wall hanger.

 

[kritter]

you asked.....

winnies.. model 12's

M74 1st year

springfield 87m & other for stock to copy

I have more photos but have to dig for them.....
Like I said,,It can be done,, however, cost wise..probally not worth it..

 

[Muley Gil]

I got a M36-1 from a feller I knew. This revolver had been through a fire and was covered in creosote. Had it Rockwell tested at the plant that did the heat treating, at one time, on the American made PPK/Ss. It passed the test. I put in new springs and carried it as a back-up gun.

 

[scooter123]

IMO, the question has been answered, S&W is NOT willing to even look at this gun. Probably due to liability concerns but it may also be simply because they know that it's not economic. It's quite possible that fully restoring this gun would cost more that a brand new model 29.

Can it be done, yes it can. However, in order to properly restore this gun to a safe shootable condition, every single component will have to be heat treated to the specifications that were developed at S&W over years of development and experience. That knowledge is something that S&W probably considers proprietary and will NOT disclose. So, in order to "reverse engineer" the heat treat specifications you would have to purchase another model 29 of the same vintage for testing. Then you would have to have metalurgical tests run to determine the specific alloy used and hardness, on each and every component. This means that it's not just a matter of harness testing, it will require a full chemical analysis and sectioning to determince the grain structure of every single part you don't replace. Got a spare 15 or 20K your not doing anything with, then it can be restored. Because I expect that is just about what it would cost to fully "reverse engineer" a model 29 from ground zero, lab time aint cheap and it really gets expensive when your trying to determine an unknown alloy. 4140, 4340 and 8620 all spark test nearly identically, however the fine details of heat treating a particular alloy are reliant on the specifics of the alloy. Without those specifics, it's a crap shoot with the risk of a blown up gun as a result.

Bottomline, if S&W won't restore it, don't trust anyone else to do it properly. It's just not worth the risk. This gun is a wall hanger and nothing more.

PS, I once made the mistake of sending some 4140 die details out for heat treating. However, I forgot to note that it was 4140 Half Hard. Turns out that the heat treat requirements for fully annealed 4140 and 4140 half hard are significantly different. Because of that mistake those details grew in size by 0.10 inches across a 12 inch span and it was nearly a total disaster. It cost a lot of overtime reworking fully hardened die details and I will NEVER repeat that mistake.

 

[Pontiaker]

winnies.. model 12's

M74 1st year

springfield 87m & other for stock to copy

I have more photos but have to dig for them.....
Like I said,,It can be done,, however, cost wise..probally not worth it..

Very cool, thanks for the pics!

 

[Pontiaker]

I got a M36-1 from a feller I knew. This revolver had been through a fire and was covered in creosote. Had it Rockwell tested at the plant that did the heat treating, at one time, on the American made PPK/Ss. It passed the test. I put in new springs and carried it as a back-up gun.

This is the same story I have heard many times over the years hence my opinion.

 

[Pontiaker]

As I said, I was only expressing my opinion. Same as you, only I wasn't being so condescending.

-S

I apologize for that.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

This is the same story I have heard many times over the years hence my opinion.

So your opinion is based on stories you have heard . Good . Don't you feel better now you have come clean from that expert jazz ?

 

[StingrayG4]

I apologize for that.

Accepted, sir. It's very difficult to judge tone in a text-only format.

-S

 

[sigp220.45]

I wonder how many PMs the OP got with offers to buy that burned up old gun?

 

[bluetopper]

Clean it up good, lube it a little, put on a thick winter coat, some welding gloves and a full welders mask and some good stout factory ammo and see how she does. Aint but one way to find out.

 

[44wheelman]

Just read most of the 8 pages...interesting. The last temper I spec'd out on a piece of "tool steel" was for a triple temper at 1000 deg F . Allthough tempers for carbon steels can go down to 400 deg F.... most of us would assume your gun hit at least that temp.

S&W didn't do much in the way of heat treat til what, sometime in the 1920's? 44 specials came out when? Well, before the triple lock. Implying 44 special loads would probably not blow you gun to pieces. Even magnum loads would probably only bulge the cylinder walls. But why gamble?

It would still be a neat project to put the gun in working order again. I still have plastic bullets I shoot in the basement from time to time.

 

[model70hunter]

Hey bornto raise hogs, it is much better to discuss issues than attack folks. The voice of experience I brought also includes helping my brother pull all of his guns out of his burned house. All of these were bad. All were rebuilt.

 

[cqb1911a1]

Its not worth your life , I wouldnt even bother sending the gun to smith and wesson, they will tell you it is not shootable just to keep their liability insurance where it is at, they will never clear that gun for shooting based on the history. It s not worth their reputation. some pretty creative answers thought.

 

[oldRoger]

Very interesting post and problem.

Since we don’t know the hardness range specifications for the various components we wouldn’t know what we need from the retest. Fires are different, the stocks are gone ”nothing but ash”, so the frame at least got hot. How it cooled is also a part of the problem, did cold water from a fire hose hit the gun?
A note about harness testing: The reason we establish a spot to test on a part as a proxy for the whole part and perhaps for a batch of parts is that they were treated as a group, brought to temp usually at defined rate, held at temp for a defined time, then cooled at a defined rate. If our intention is to harden, we may quench in a specific material, at a specific temperature, to be followed perhaps by a partial anneal.
This is not my Grandfather’s “heat it red hot and let it cool”.
The reason we shoot nothing but low pressure loads in triple locks is that S&W didn’t know how to heat treat and the metals available were not really capable of modern heat treatment.
As noted above the retreatment of the disassembled parts will almost certainly result in the need to remachine and some parts may not clean-up, that is you may not be able to get them back to nominal dimensions.
Certainly the small parts could and should be replaced. It would be much cheaper to replace the cylinder than to attempt the reheat-treatment and remachining.
So we have the frame and barrel, unless the barrel is dead soft or harder than hammered hell, I wouldn’t worry much about it if it is dimensionally ok.

But the frame? With burned off stocks on one end and a barrel (heat sink) on the other, could we ever trust the frame?
Could we trust it if tested all over and compared to a couple of other M29s, perhaps, but I will not volunteer my 29 for the strip down and Rockwell Testing. Could it be retreated and remachined? Only if cost was no object.

Unless the pistol was extremely valuable and must be restored to firing condition, my considered opinion is that it should be replaced rather than restored.