Absolutely true. At the turn of the previous century the 32 S&W was a police gun and the 32 Long was available in the Colt D. Special up in to the 70's. It may not have been the best choice but it's where you hit them.
Why has it not been mentioned
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Absolutely true. At the turn of the previous century the 32 S&W was a police gun and the 32 Long was available in the Colt D. Special up in to the 70's. It may not have been the best choice but it's where you hit them.
Yup, nothing else matters but shot placement. You put a 9,40, or 45 where it's supposed to be and the situation is over.
This is not caliber discussion folks. It's a placement discussion.
There are many documented shooting with multiple rounds expended in several calibers.
It ALL proves one thing. SHOT PLACEMENT.
He who shoots first AND accurately usually wins.
I can post a cropped photo of a man's forehead that was shot at about 25 feet. The mark is almost between the eyes. It was by a 9mm and it was also an accidental shooting. The man lived and was out of the hospital the next day. He had headaches for a long time and may still be having them and he has a scar from it but he lived. I feel headaches and a scar is not much to complain about when being alive. I interviewed him at the hospital and while doing so, the ER Dr that worked on him said the man was lucky in several ways since it could have hit an eye but it was really good the gun was "only a 9mm" and I have to agree.
Granted, cops are not marksmen but the mass exodus from the 9mm by departments over the world should show doubters that the 9mm may be a good gun as well as being cheap to shoot but it is weak on the defense scale. Go buy a junk car door and use it for target practice. It will change your mind about the 9mm.
Granted, cops are not marksmen but the mass exodus from the 9mm by departments over the world should show doubters that the 9mm may be a good gun as well as being cheap to shoot but it is weak on the defense scale. Go buy a junk car door and use it for target practice. It will change your mind about the 9mm.
Audie Murphy may have preferred the M1 Carbine, but he he used a Browning .50 caliber machine gun mounted atop a tank destroyer in the action which resulted in his being awarded the Medal of Honor. In that instance, he killed 50 of the enemy. I don't know if he used the Carbine in some of the other actions in which he was awarded medals.
TxShooter
Member
That mass exodus likely has more to do with gunmakers practically giving away new .40s to departments to gain marketshare than any deficiencies with the 9mm. Glock did it with the .40 and later the .45 GAP, SIG-Sauer did the same with the .357 SIG. Any loss was more than made up since the 15-18 round 9mm mags could be sold at scalper prices during the Assault Weapons Ban.
With advances in bullet design I'd wager that any difference between the 9mm, .357 SIG, .40, and .45 is insignificant. Each has advantages and disadvantages, but they will all work for duty or defense.
lonejacklarry
US Veteran
I realize that this is drifting from the thread but I think it is worth reading. After you read about MSG Roy Benavidez, spend some time rooting around the 240th AHC web site.
MSG. Roy Benavidez
Very well put. Never been attacked by a car door and I'm not concerned about it.
When are people going to understand that it's not the caliber that counts. It's the caliber of the man that counts.
Mintset, training, and practice are a more important concern than caliber. Pick one of those three calibers and become proficient with it.
Some of the very people that talk down 9MM won't hesitate to carry their beloved 5 shot 38 special.
I disagree and so will any of the studies you can come up with.
Not many have been attacked by a car door but a lot have been shot at from a car with a door. When the shooter is using an open window and a victim is shooting at the mass, which is the entire door due to a head shot on a moving vehicle being exremely difficult and watching their bullets not penetrate the door skin, then the caliber makes a difference. The majority on here or any other site has not been in an aggressive mode. It is disappointing to see someone drive from a crime scene due to not being hit.
Proficiency always helps but proficiency goes out the window during stressful situations. The bad guys shoot both first and back. Examine the distances of most shooting confrontations and you will see they are less than 20 feet. Also you will see that hits are rare at that distance. Yet the shock value of being hit anywhere with larger calibers offer a distinct advantage.
As to .38spl, they are good guns and their ballistics are improved over the 9mm. I own some Wondernines and have carried them while wanting a larger gun. The FBI spent millions on studying the effects of various calibers and they came up with the .40 or .45acp being best. Other groups made pricey studies with the same outcome.
In a pinch, I would take and use a .22 rimfire if that was all I had. Those defending the 9mm has that right and likely good reasons but those having used them in an aggressive mannor will not praise them at all. Yes the 9mm is a nice weapon, low recoil, cheap ammo (not by much though), and flat shooting. But it is not a good defensive or aggressive gun during a firefight just as Corvair is not as good in a collision as a Cadillac.
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Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Man, I sure do like you but we are not dealing with "mass exodus likely has more to do" but rather with facts.
Show me one, even recent, study comparing calibers that gives any advantage to the 9mm.
Almost everything is based on some proactive study. The speed limit on a roadway is based on the road width, traffic, commercial entry, curves and signals. The size of a traffic light and placement is based on the same things.
Now let's consider your "likely" theme. A 9mm round is cheaper to shoot so therefore a department with 600 guys is going to go through hundreds of thousands of rounds each year. Budgets are tight so why are they "likely" to buy a larger more expensive round?
The guns, at any price are not going to be swapped evenly for the old 9mm weapons. SPD had to pay $330 each plus the trade in. I doubt that could be considered "practically giving away" or even close. The depts across the US went to guns that gave the officers some advantage.
Now to some history lessons for you young starters. Back during the 70's, the perps were buying the foreign 9mm guns with high capacity mags like the Mac 10 and others. Officers on the streets were carrying larger calibers but with only six rounds and they felt outgunned since most cops are not good shots. Departments went to the guns that worked the best while having the large capacity mags. This meant a 9mm as that was all there was in quality products at the time.
With some experience in street use, they found the 9mm to be lacking. A new gun with a 17 round mag was now available called a .40 cal. It was topping the charts in efficiency and stopping power. Depts went to it in droves. Now there are double stack mags for the .45acp and some depts are going there. True, there are some departmental holdouts like NYCPD (although I am told this is slowly being changed) due to budget concerns. Having several thousand officers takes millions of dollars that NYC does not have and taxpayers are not willing to fund. LAPD is also changing over but the cost is to the taxpayer and it takes time for a complete change over.
Again, those defending the 9mm likely only has a 9mm to use and that is fine. For those with options, they will carry a larger caliber. For me, with a room full of guns, I can use any caliber since I have multiples of just about each caliber but I chose the .45acp as my primary carry, a .40 as a second choice, a .357 mag revolver as a third and the 9mm as a fourth. My decision is based on street experience, studies and seeing the experiences of others first hand.
Now when are we going to lunch again?
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RufusG
Member
I have defensive handguns in various calibers including 9mm and 45ACP. I carry a 9 by choice.
A couple years ago I was out in the desert shooting at a log with handguns in 9, 357, and 45.
When I was done, I approached the target to examine it and was stunned to see a handful of bullets in varying degrees of distortion laying on the ground in front of the log. They were ALL 45s and they had merely bounced of the target. No 9s or 357s bounced off. They all penetrated the log.
Please explain to me how this could happen since the 9 is so obviously inferior.
amd6547
Member
I do own other handguns besides the 9mm, including a 45. I enjoy shooting the 45, but I would not count on it to penetrate a car door better than a 9mm FMJ.
Most of the time, my house handgun is a Model19-4 loaded with 125gn JHP 357 mag loads. But I also sometimes use a Beretta 92FS loaded with 18 Ranger 127gn +P+'s, with a spare mag of 9mm NATO FMJ (for those pesky car doors) and I feel pretty confident with that set up.
The handgun is always handy, of course, but my main HD weapon is an Inland M1 carbine loaded with 110gn SP's.
And yes, Audie Murphy used a 50cal on a burning tank in his MOH action. He was also known to use the Thompson SMG and the Garand. But the carbine was his favorite. He was known to hunt German snipers with it. In fact, when the stock on his trusty carbine broke, he refused a replacement, and wired it together.
My Father was a WWII vet who fought in europe. He brought home a 45 1911, which is my most treasured firearm. He had used both the Thompson SMG and M3 greasegun (as well as the garand, all the Browning machineguns and the 37mm cannon on his armored car). But he also owned a german Radom 9mm pistol, and showed a lot of respect for the 9mm, perhaps because of his experience with the Germans and their SMG's.
Most of the time, my house handgun is a Model19-4 loaded with 125gn JHP 357 mag loads. But I also sometimes use a Beretta 92FS loaded with 18 Ranger 127gn +P+'s, with a spare mag of 9mm NATO FMJ (for those pesky car doors) and I feel pretty confident with that set up.
The handgun is always handy, of course, but my main HD weapon is an Inland M1 carbine loaded with 110gn SP's.
And yes, Audie Murphy used a 50cal on a burning tank in his MOH action. He was also known to use the Thompson SMG and the Garand. But the carbine was his favorite. He was known to hunt German snipers with it. In fact, when the stock on his trusty carbine broke, he refused a replacement, and wired it together.
My Father was a WWII vet who fought in europe. He brought home a 45 1911, which is my most treasured firearm. He had used both the Thompson SMG and M3 greasegun (as well as the garand, all the Browning machineguns and the 37mm cannon on his armored car). But he also owned a german Radom 9mm pistol, and showed a lot of respect for the 9mm, perhaps because of his experience with the Germans and their SMG's.
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Have your father study history. The Germans were very vocal about their 9mm Lugers being inferior to the US .45 and history has not been kind toward the 9mm used in other countries. Visit other countries and you will seldom see a 9mm being carried by their military or police.
If the 9mm was such a great thing, it would still be in use in other countries. While not having seen it in legal documents, I have been told by several that the 9mm NATO round is being phased out as well. But doing so is getting a lot of opposition from the humanitarian groups due to the damage newer rounds cause to those shot. Studies do not back the 9mm as being effective.
Simple, it was the type bullet you were shooting. I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in each caliber and have never witnessed a .45 fail to penetrate anything that another caliber would. I have seen them make a big dent in some tough metal without full penetration but then neither did any other caliber.
In order to properly compare calibers, the same type bullet must be used and then the formulas to make the bullets more equal.
Take a plastic jug filled with water and a cap on it. Shoot one with each caliber and see what damage is done.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Never shot at anyone nor have been shot at... but if the cops entirely miss their target 50% or more of the time in close quarters handgun fight then I doubt I would do any better, probably worse. So when ya'll are talking about precision shooting or shot placement what is your definition and realistic expectations?
RufusG
Member
Please, if it is so simple, tell me what kind of bullets I was shooting then.
I thought as long as it started with a "4" I couldn't go wrong.
bmcgilvray
Member
I'm just goofy and know it. I like the .38 Special fine, realizing that the 9mm is its semi-auto equivalent and will accomplish the same tasks with equal facility. I just enjoy loathing 9mm because it became so overrated in print, beginning back in the early 1980s. I see it as a ho-hum round, equal to the .38 Special but not so superior to it as is generally assumed.
Even though I generally carry a .38 Special, the .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP look like the best three choices when "push comes to shove."
Even though I generally carry a .38 Special, the .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP look like the best three choices when "push comes to shove."
It could be any one of the lead or clad bullets. The choice of calibers does not insure penetration whereas the choice of bullets will.
I will add that I was shot in the leg by a 9mm bullet that ricocheted off a concrete roadway and went into my leg from a foot away. The bullet was almost flat and was a copper clad bullet. Never did learn the brand. It stung after a few minutes but I was treated and released.
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Shot placement grasshopper! The biker mentioned some pages back soaked up 33 pistol rounds and 2 rifled slugs-the first rifled slug frequently isn't mentioned. Not having the paperwork in hand, roughly 27 of the 9mm rounds were adynamic-could not have contributed to death. An embarassing number were of the "Here's some bandaids and asprin. Keep the wounds clean and dressed, come back to the ER if there's any swelling, redness or fever." variety. One of the rifled slug wounds was of that type, if a severe version: the slug hit the back at a very shallow angle, deflected off the ribcage (subject was bent forward reloading) and passed between the ribcage and skin, exiting above the left clavicle. The next round was aimed lower and struck centered on the spine removing several inches of spine and ending the fight.
BTW, that incident took place at a roadblock and involved more than 5 officers. It wasn't a long drawn out affair, which was a good thing since the state cops weren't authorized spare magazines at the time.
Also, the 9 does have a slight advantage over the .38/.357: it's velocity range isn't that great. As a result it's fairly easy to create expanding bullets that work properly. If you build a .357 bullet for .38 velocities, it shreds. If you build it for .357 velocities, it won't expand at .38 velocities, or at least won't expand much. Regardless, it's still shot placement that solves the problem at hand.
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RufusG
Member
Bad guess. The 45s and 9s were primarily FMJs. So back to the original question, how could this have happened?
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