Realistic handgun training for CCW

[Gary Slider]

You will react how you train/practice. That is a given. It is seen everyday in all fields where things get hairy. If you stand still and shoot all the time that is most likely what you will do if you get in a real situation. I won't go into mind set and everything else. You ask about the shooting part. Practice, practice, practice. If you use a timer to start when the buzzer goes off start moving. Draw and engage the target/s while moving. Learn to shoot on the move. Practice shooting on the move. Try move towards cover if possible. Practice moving backwards at a 45 degree angle from the attacker or sideways. Move to cover if available. But distance from the attacker gives you time and time is what you need to Orientate, Observe, Decide and Act. The faster you do that the better chance you have to survive. When it comes to a gun battle the person who connects first with a round usually wins. Usually but not all the time. But you want to hit the bad guy and you don't want to get hit. Moving gives you the best odds.

There are dozens if not hundreds of books written about this. Covering it all on a chat forum is impossible. Read and read some more. Practice and then Practice more and more and more. You can practice with a 22 as it is cheaper to shoot and you will practice more. 22 are great practice firearms and the whole deal is to practice. Then move up to your carry gun. You can learn as much about shoot with a 22 as you can with a 45. The only thing different is the recoil.

 

[jtpur]

I am one of those who have actually used a gun to stop a threat. Both night time and day time. I can tell you this, aiming is rarely accomplished. Speed of draw was necessary, hip shooting is necessary and probably should be trained. At night you notice the flash, but the sound is non existent....Everything is in slow motion but happening at the speed of light and to understand that you have to be there. For the average CCW person, familarity with his weapon, practice taking it from its hiding spot, pointing at a target and dry firing are good techniques to practice.....beyond that, going to the range and killing paper targets is good.....A "Hogans Ally" training facility would be nice but suits law enforcement better than the average citizen....being prepared to shoot and shooting when necessary complete the picture. My humble opinion only....

 

[photoman]

Reality in our area is that criminals have learned not to draw their weapon until the last second and then frequently shoot the victim in the head. By the time the weapon is visible, there is no time to draw and few if any option for escape. If the victim warns the perpatrator away, he may be charged with assault. If the victim allows the perpetrator inside of 7 yards, he will likely either end up dead or forced to shoot. I havent heard of anyone addressing this type of situation, which is now very common. I would like to know just what is expected of you in that type of situation. Is there a course addressing this?

Suarez International Force On Force Gunfighting is the class you're looking for.

 

[surveyor47]

Thanks, I will look them up. Do you have a website?

From what I have seen, many courses focus entirely upon tactics once the shooting starts. My example points out that what happens before the shooting starts may actually be more important when it comes time to go to Court. The criminals know that if they can get in close due to the element of doubt and legal rules of engagement, they can shoot or stab you at face to face range. This is what I believe is causing face to face OK Corrales. The key is to resolve the situation before it becomes very very up close. The greater the distance the better, the less likely shots to be fired. But how to do so without getting charged with assault. As I understand it right now, the rules of engagement are that the criminal never knows that you are armed until you actually fire. I think thats nuts. If the very act of warning the guy away is assault, because you place him in fear, what reason does he have not to continue his pursuit of you? There are times when I think its better to carry pepper spray or a taser rather than a gun. At least you can hose him down with pepper spray without too much fear of prosecution.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Do not limit yourself to one instructor or style of training.

There are many good instructors out there and some not. They took what they learned from someone or somewhere else and incorporated it into their teach style and content. It's not one size fits all and it shouldn't be.

Take several different classes when you can. Then use what works best for you.

Mas Ayoobs Lethal Force Institute, Tom Givens, Dave Spaulding, Rob Pincus, Clint Smith, and a few others are some of the most notable and respected instructors in the business.

To avoid a fight I won't use names but there is one instructor in particular that I don't care for. He seems very full of himself and seems to talk a lot of crap. I've read his articles and perused his forum. I'm not impressed.

So before taking any recommendations when seeking quality instruction, do your homework.

 

[Oscar Zulu]

surveyvor47, I believe hosing someone down with pepper spray or a taser is both assualt and battery. Good luch with that one.
OZ

 

[cshoff]

My opinion on the subject is that you don't necessarily have to go across the country, take a week off of work, and spend thousands of dollars to get quality, high-level training. Here in my home state of Missouri, there are a number of professional instructors that provide advanced defensive training to the armed citizen. Everything from the CCW Level 2 and NRA Personal Protection courses that I teach, all the way to specialized combatives training offered by other instructors, as well as some Suarez International classes taught by a local Suarez affiliate instructor. You can also find one-time courses from folks like Randy Cane and Rob Pincus in your area on occasion that are sponsored by local clubs or ranges.

The main thing is that you exercise some due diligence when selecting an instructor to take training with and spend your hard earned money on. As has been pointed out in this thread, not all instructors are created equal. Ask for references and actually CHECK THOSE REFERENCES before filling out the enrollment form. If an instructor is unwilling to provide references or has a "holier than thou" attitude over the phone or by email, move on and find yourself a different instructor. Any instructor worth his/her salt should be happy to provide references and take some time to answer any questions you have BEFORE you send them your money. If an instructor's references don't check out, won't return your calls, or seem "wishy washy", again, move on and find a different instructor. You don't want to end up in a class where they don't have the utmost regard for your safety and learning experience.

Also, keep the courses you take relevant to your needs. While an "urban fighting rifle" course might sound like fun, how likely is it that you, an armed citizen, are ever going to walk the streets with an AR strapped over your shoulder? Your money would probably be better spent on a defensive handgun course of some variety, rather than a rifle course. Of course, only you can decide what your needs are.

Once you have decided on an instructor and course, go into it with an open mind. While you may not agree with everything the instructor says, or may have been taught something in the past differently than this instructor does it, you are paying this person to teach you, so do your very best to try it "his way" while you are in his class. If you later discover that a particular technique doesn't work for you, you can always discard it, and you never know, you just might find that you have learned a better way of doing something. Also, be sure to take plenty of notes, take pictures (if allowed), and ask questions until you have a complete understanding of the answers. Remember, you are paying this person for his/her knowledge. You might as well soak up as much as possible while you are there.

I think a lot of people get "hung up" on the idea that they have to take training with a "big name" instructor in order to receive good training. While there certainly is nothing wrong with seeking out that kind of training if you have the time and resources, if you'll exercise some due diligence, you can generally find very good training much closer to home and at a very reasonable price.

 

[surveyor47]

surveyvor47, I believe hosing someone down with pepper spray or a taser is both assualt and battery. Good luch with that one.
OZ

Years ago, I actually did hose a guy down with the old Mace. A man was beating a woman to death, trying to crack her head open like a coconut in the middle of the street, in front of stopped traffic, with at least 50 witnesses. I went over to stop it with nothing more than a can of Mace and steel toed shoes. The guy jumped up and I though was going to shoot me. I sprayed him in the face and eyes. At first he laughed, but about 10 seconds later, it took effect and he ran off. Longest 10 seconds of my life. The traffic was blaring horns as I tried to help the woman. I finally picked her up in my arms and put her in my car and asked people to call police and an ambulance. At least 6 police cars were visible 2 blocks away, cops in a local bar as usual. When witnesses asked for help, they refused, continuing their drinks and meals. In fact, Im sure they saw the whole incident. A cruiser finally showed up 30 minutes later. A police lieutenant interviewed at least 30 people and informed me that I was mad because the man was beating a woman. He and I then went looking for him, but we never found him. He said that he "never has a problem when a citizen maces a * hole". The guy soon afterward murdered (beat to death) a 70 year old man for his ATM card and got his picture taken when he used the card. He is spending the rest of his life in prision. His method is to beat his victim to death, in front of witnesses, even large crowds, stopping traffic to do so.

When I lived in the city, I went through 3 successful armed robberies and at least 22 more attempted robberies, none of which were successful, because I resisted each and every time- unarmed. I did my very best to put each armed robber in fear, using anything and everything at my disposal as a weapon. I will never allow a man to stick a gun in my face again. Whomever decided that you can defend yourself against an armed attacker without putting him in fear needs a realtity check. Most will run when they get determined resistance. They count on people not resisting and frequently shoot or stab their victim to death.

 

[The Big D]

... legal rules of engagement, ... how to do so without getting charged with assault. As I understand it right now, the rules of engagement are that the criminal never knows that you are armed until you actually fire. I think thats nuts. If the very act of warning the guy away is assault, because you place him in fear, what reason does he have not to continue his pursuit of you? .../QUOTE]

Surveyor, I think you are getting some really, really, really bad advice.

In my experience, there are no such things as quantified rules of engagement, quantified distances wherein you can shoot/don't shoot, or similar.

I suggest you study this matter anew...and get some new instructors who offer other than what you have been presented.

Be safe.

PS:

If anyone/anywhere can prove there is a statute/law/ordinance that quantifies "shooting space" I will buy him/her a keg of his/her choice. Truth!!!

 

[The Big D]

...
When I lived in the city, I went through 3 successful armed robberies and at least 22 more attempted robberies, none of which were successful, ...

Say what????
YOU HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF AN ARMED ROBBERY/ATTEMPTED ARMED ROBBERY TWENTY-FIVE (25) TIMES?????

If you have not already, I suggest you move or make yourself less "available" as a victim.

Be safe.

 

[surveyor47]

I got divorced 16 years ago, got "cleaned out" and moved into what I could afford, which was not much. It took me 10 years to get clear of that divorce judgement. I found out what it is like to live in a crime ridden city and have long since moved to the suburbs. Yeah, 25 armed robberies in 10 years. That is what lots of people in the city are having to put up with. When people are literally fighting off criminals on a daily basis, the ivory tower solutions of what they should and should not do are obviously out of touch. I think some prosecutors need a little street level experience.

 

[Martial Warrior]

I discussed much of my thoughts in my thread 'Hangunning 101'. Some thoughts to add here; a lot can be done at no cost that would go a long way towards being prepared. Learning to load quickly, be it a speed loader or magazine. Try to put yourself under some duress, do it in dim light, do in while laying down in off positions, do it with your off-hand etc. Look for the positions of cover in and around your home. If you live in a bad area, what are the hot spots to avoid if possible? What is the best route to take home? What is the safest way to approach your own front door? Practice the 'what if' game ahead of time so you're not caught flat-footed.

Don't overload yourself with packages that interfere with your ability to move to cover or draw a firearm or fend off an attack with H2H skills.

Practice clearing malfunctions using saftey (non-firing) rounds.

Keep your firearm in good repair.

Talk with your partner/spouse/friends/family that may be with you so they have an understanding of what to do if something happens.

Don't walk around with your head up your....um, sleeve

The range is one thing, and important. But many more important things can be trained for without ever going to the range. Indeed, some things can't be trained for at the range i.e. firing angles in your house (not shooting them of course, but seeing where they are in full and in dim light).

Just points to ponder.

 

[surveyor47]

Part of my point is that too many CCW courses are oriented strictly toward shooting, when that should be the last option, not the first. I have managed to defeat 22 attempted armed robberies without firing a shot or killing anyone. When you have a crime ridden city and a corrupt DA (who got caught with a cop killer in his bedroom closet), you are having to deal with this stuff on a dail basis, not once in a lifetime. The best outcome is for both the perpetrator and intended victim to walk away unharmed. That isnt always possible, but it is a heck of a lot less trouble than dealing with cops, prosecutors and lawyers.

What gets me is this proposition that you are not supposed to scare someone who is attempting to rob you or worse! What planet!?? Its OK for a criminal to scare the victim half to death, but if the intended victim puts the fear of God into a criminal, the victim is now a criminal. Unbelievable.

 

[The Big D]

As I offered yesterday, Surveyor, it appears you are getting horrendously bad advice/training. Perhaps you should read postings and reply thereto. Seriously!!! Re-read posts 12 and 29, please. You did try to reply to 12 but could not explain/support the 7 yard "law" you suggested exists. You truly do need some training by folks who know what they are doing. Last I will say...

Be safe.

 

[cshoff]

Part of my point is that too many CCW courses are oriented strictly toward shooting, when that should be the last option, not the first. I have managed to defeat 22 attempted armed robberies without firing a shot or killing anyone. When you have a crime ridden city and a corrupt DA (who got caught with a cop killer in his bedroom closet), you are having to deal with this stuff on a dail basis, not once in a lifetime. The best outcome is for both the perpetrator and intended victim to walk away unharmed. That isnt always possible, but it is a heck of a lot less trouble than dealing with cops, prosecutors and lawyers.

What gets me is this proposition that you are not supposed to scare someone who is attempting to rob you or worse! What planet!?? Its OK for a criminal to scare the victim half to death, but if the intended victim puts the fear of God into a criminal, the victim is now a criminal. Unbelievable.

I'm not sure what state you are in, but I can pretty much guarantee it's not Missouri. I've never heard of any such laws in ANY state.

 

[surveyor47]

According to every instructor I have spoken to, court precident in the state of Louisiana is that shootings outside of 7 yards (killing range for a knife) are presumed to be unjustified. I do not have the case law.

According to several instructors I have spoken to, if you put someone in fear, including someone who is attempting to rob you, you have committed assault. The rule of thumb is that the weapon should never be visible until ready to fire. Some say that you can take a position where your hand is on the weapon but it is not displayed. However; some attorneys are now advising that even this can be considered assault and there have been cases where criminals have justified shooting their victims "for having gone for a gun, placing them in fear". YEAH REALLY! These same attorneys are advising holstering weapons in non traditional locations away from pockets or the hip- Thunderwear being a good example.

It seems that in the state of Louisiana, the criminals are "ahead of the curve". From what I understand, the type of crime that I am so very afraid of- where a criminal walks or runs up to you without displaying a weapon, defying warnings and your escape attempts- is being used fairly frequently. This is where understanding of state gun laws are absolutely critical- in fact life or death. This is the reason I want to find a course on Louisiana law that will tell me what I can or cannot do. For now, the best response I can think of is to de-escalate the situation if possible before resorting to lethal force. If after retreat, use of barriers, warnings and the guy continues, a good dose of pepper spray ought to slow him down. But even then, many now resort to sunglasses to protect their eyes. The gun should be the absolute last resort, but in this case, the criminal may be inches from your face when he produces the weapon, giving you virtually no time to respond. At best, you end up with a face to face OK Corrale, where he has the advantage. This is why I say that keeping them at a distance is so very critical. The closer he gets, the greater the criminals advantage. But then again, absent him drawing a weapon, how do you actually know that he is a criminal or that he intends to do your harm? All that you know is that he is behaving agressively and very strangely, placing you in fear of your life. Now, what happens if his intent is to beat you to death in the manner of that killer that I confronted years ago? You shoot a huge man in the act of committing murder, but he is unarmed- off to jail you go.

The problem with the gun thing is that violent crime is a way of life here, something we deal with daily. If you shoot the guy, it is very likely that the next time you have to deal with one of these idiots, you will still be in court with the last one. Thats the great thing about pepper spray, people dont hesitate to use it and you dont have to deal with a possible murder, man slaughter or wrongful death charge.

The point of disagreement that I have with some instructors is that I believe that their advice actually makes a shooting more likely rather than less likely, their primary focus being on "legally righteous". If you are having to deal with 1 or 2 armed robbers per year, you can "legally righteous" your way into bankruptcy or jail- not a practical solution.

Yes, I will re-read paragraphs. Thanks.

 

[cshoff]

According to every instructor I have spoken to, court precident in the state of Louisiana is that shootings outside of 7 yards (killing range for a knife) are presumed to be unjustified. I do not have the case law.

According to several instructors I have spoken to, if you put someone in fear, including someone who is attempting to rob you, you have committed assault. The rule of thumb is that the weapon should never be visible until ready to fire. Some say that you can take a position where your hand is on the weapon but it is not displayed. However; some attorneys are now advising that even this can be considered assault and there have been cases where criminals have justified shooting their victims "for having gone for a gun, placing them in fear". YEAH REALLY! These same attorneys are advising holstering weapons in non traditional locations away from pockets or the hip- Thunderwear being a good example.

It seems that in the state of Louisiana, the criminals are "ahead of the curve". From what I understand, the type of crime that I am so very afraid of- where a criminal walks or runs up to you without displaying a weapon, defying warnings and your escape attempts- is being used fairly frequently. This is where understanding of state gun laws are absolutely critical- in fact life or death. This is the reason I want to find a course on Louisiana law that will tell me what I can or cannot do. For now, the best response I can think of is to de-escalate the situation if possible before resorting to lethal force. If after retreat, use of barriers, warnings and the guy continues, a good dose of pepper spray ought to slow him down. But even then, many now resort to sunglasses to protect their eyes. The gun should be the absolute last resort, but in this case, the criminal may be inches from your face when he produces the weapon, giving you virtually no time to respond. At best, you end up with a face to face OK Corrale, where he has the advantage. This is why I say that keeping them at a distance is so very critical. The closer he gets, the greater the criminals advantage. But then again, absent him drawing a weapon, how do you actually know that he is a criminal or that he intends to do your harm? All that you know is that he is behaving agressively and very strangely, placing you in fear of your life. Now, what happens if his intent is to beat you to death in the manner of that killer that I confronted years ago? You shoot a huge man in the act of committing murder, but he is unarmed- off to jail you go.

The problem with the gun thing is that violent crime is a way of life here, something we deal with daily. If you shoot the guy, it is very likely that the next time you have to deal with one of these idiots, you will still be in court with the last one. Thats the great thing about pepper spray, people dont hesitate to use it and you dont have to deal with a possible murder, man slaughter or wrongful death charge.

The point of disagreement that I have with some instructors is that I believe that their advice actually makes a shooting more likely rather than less likely, their primary focus being on "legally righteous". If you are having to deal with 1 or 2 armed robbers per year, you can "legally righteous" your way into bankruptcy or jail- not a practical solution.

Yes, I will re-read paragraphs. Thanks.

As someone who is intimately familiar with Missouri laws regarding the use of force and the use of deadly force, I can honestly say that I am NOT up to speed on the laws in LA. That said, most states have use of force laws that are fairly similar.

In Missouri, there is no "distance standard" that must be met. Pretty much anytime you are confronted with the threat of severe bodily injury or death, and you are not the initial aggressor, you have legal justification to use deadly force to defend yourself, regardless if the threat is 1 foot away, or 100 feet away. In addition, due to our Castle Doctrine, in Missouri, you also have legal justification to use deadly force against someone who unlawfully enters, attempts to unlawfully enter, or remains after unlawfully entering, any dwelling, residence, or vehicle that you lawfully occupy, and there is no "distance standard" that must be met in any of those cases either.

Yes, a firearm is a self-defense tool of last resort that should only be deployed when your other options have been exhausted. That said, at least in Missouri, there is no law that says the bad guy gets a "free shot" at you before you can use deadly force.

 

[silvercn]

Without discussing specific situations and specific senarios you will never know all the variables. Therein lies the rub.

I believe that 99% of situations can be dealt with by basic knowledge of your surroundings. By this I mean, trust your gut.
If its a bad situation, leave (if possible). If you are unable to leave, make eye contact with the percieved threat.
Many times they will divert or engage you at that time.
Looking away and hoping it just passes is a horrible tactic that gets sheep hurt or worse, killed.

There are 3 basic types of ppl in this world.
Wolves, Sheep, and Sheepdogs.
*Wolves - "badguys, wanting to prey on the weak and distractied".
*Sheep - "everyday ppl. won't run to help, and arn't looking for trouble".
Trying to live their lives and are somewhat unaware of threats and evil in the world" Many ppl are in this catagory.
*Sheepdogs - "LE, Military types. If they are not in that group they are the ppl that are
prepared, aware, and alert to the active and passive threats in daily life.
Prepared and ready to take action as resonablly nessasary"

Of course most of us in these types of forums are sheepdogs,
if were not, it is very strange that your on this forum reading this.
And if your a Wolf... shame on you!

I have already went on and on...
but in short, try to be aware and spot threats before they are upon you.
That sense that somethings wrong, that chill up your spine, or that intuition.... is usually right. listen to it...
clear yourself from that threat if possible or prepare yourself for the action needed...
only you will know... and only you can take the action.