Non-Regulation Sidearms Used In WWI & II

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

As I imagined, eventually Gen. Patton would have to be invoked in relationship to this subject. Because he was a "high profile" guy and genuine American historical icon of WWII, the film Patton and the historical fact that he did indeed carry and was photographed wearing a S&W Registered Magnum, a Colt Single Action Army, a Colt Detective Special and a Colt 1903 auto.

As I understand it, General Officers could pack what they wished in addition to the issue 1911/1911-A1 or the General Officer issued Colt .32 auto, at their discretion. Field grade officers did not enjoy that official discretionary choice of sidearms, and enlisted personnel officially had no discretion to use other than authorized sidearms. However, from the responses to this post it is apparent that both field grade officers and enlisted personnel were packin' non regulation weapons in combat theatres. They are the guys who I'm more interested in knowing about because they were the front line warriors who won battle after battle, facing cruel adversity, to final victory. General Patton is one of my personal heroes, but a glimpse into the life and experience of the less sensationalized troops who gave all, are in my opinion, the people I admire most of all. Happy Veterans Day and never foget them!

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[calmex]

My late friend Colonel Phil Roettinger carried this .357 S&W as a Marine Lieutenant on Guadalcanal and later Bouganville. He brought it back with him to the U.S., and later carried it on occasion in Latin America as the Head of the C.I.A. in Latin America.

The revolver and Phil are talked about rather thoroughly in the thread http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...47-penultimate-pre-postwar-magnum-mexico.html

 

[jimmyj]

During WWII and Korea my Mother and her Friends made fruit cakes in coffee cans or other hard sided containers that would have handguns wrapped in wax paper in the center. The handguns were (as I recall) .32s, and .38s. During WWII firearms were difficult to obtain, so many of these "Sent Fruit Cakes" were from personal bureau drawers that were "Home Protection" weapons.

 

[Texas Star]

Most here know the name of Jeff Cooper, a late gun writer. He told me that he had a Colt SAA fitted with stag grips and adjustable sights during the Pacific campaigns. He was then a Marine officer. The gun sometimes appeared in publications by him.

He shot a Jap with it, and one shot was very effective, knocking the man violently off of a log that he had stepped up on. Cooper meant to shoot twice but the man was blown off his feet so violently that he held his fire after the first shot. Caliber was .45 Colt.

Col. Chas. Askins carried a Colt New Service, I think in .44/40. He had cut out the front of the trigger guard, like those guns called Fitz Specials. I believe he did shoot one or two Germans wth it. Haven't time to check his, Unrepentant Sinner. But I'm almost certain that he shot a German POW that he caught sabotaging US vehicles. He certainly shot others with rifles. Oh: I think he also used the Colt on an Arab thief.

In the early days of the Viet war, he shot a Cong who was stalking him. One shot from a S&W M-29 did the trick, as one might suppose. The gun had a 6.5-inch bbl. Askins was carrying it to test and to be a defense while hunting dangerous game with rifles.

Bill Jordan told me that he carried a S&W M-1917 while eradicating Jap holdouts in dugouts on the islands. But he mainly relied on a 12 gauge pump shotgun, I think a Model 12. Didn't say if the .45 was his own. I should have asked.

T-Star
P.S. I doubt that these writers gave a dang about using lead bullets in combat.

 

[Texas Star]

Not to get too OT, but a book I read a few months ago made a good case for Patton having been assasinated.

This theory crops up, but he died following an auto accident. That doesn't seem a very effective way to kill him. He lived for a week or so, in the hospital. He might have been injected with something there.

T-Star

 

[JDBarrister]

Two years ago I was talking to a Sergeant who had just gotten back from Iraq. He had been over there as an army sniper and carried a Kimber 1911. He complained about the M-24 in .308 and indicated most of the real work was being done by .50 cal rifles. He did say he got to use the British L115A3 and much preferred the .338 Lapua round.

 

[Catshooter]

This theory crops up, but he died following an auto accident. That doesn't seem a very effective way to kill him. He lived for a week or so, in the hospital. He might have been injected with something there.

T-Star

Really? He died, didn't he?


Cat

 

[Muley Gil]

Skeeter Skelton wrote about carrying a pair of S&W M&Ps to the Pacific. He said that a Lt found out about them and Skeeter traded them to a sailor.

I read where Patton carried a Colt Woodsman during tank maneuvers in the SW desert in 1941.

 

[bmcgilvray]

This is a jewel of a thread. Love reading tales of men in wartime and their guns, especially non-regulation guns.

 

[jlrhiner]

A couple of things;

1) I read somewhere that they asked American civilians to donate rifles to the British for Home Guard use as they had a very limited quantity available.

and 2) I have my father-in-laws .25 Schmeisser pistol with the bring back papers. The only one I've ever seen.

BTW, I just got "TARGET PATTON" for my birthday. We'll see what REALLY happened

 

[Scary Gary]

Not that this was war time. But from 1986 to 1988 I was attached to the U.S. Navy's HAL-5 squadron . And if you could qualify with it you could carry it . You just about name it and guys were carrying it . I don't think you could get away with this today.

 

[Texas Star]

Not that this was war time. But from 1986 to 1988 I was attached to the U.S. Navy's HAL-5 squadron . And if you could qualify with it you could carry it . You just about name it and guys were carrying it . I don't think you could get away with this today.

HAL-5 squadron? Please explain; not a term that I know.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Japanese officers in WW2 simply purchased whatever sidearms they wanted. Some bought Nambus, but Colt, Smith & Wesson, and German made guns were also popular. Thus an array of American and European made handguns were picked up in the Pacific and used. I remember reading of a No.3 Russian Revolver, probably picked up during the Russo-Japanese war being thus captured.

German troops used whatever. As a practical matter, most experienced soldiers in an area where they might be partisans tried to obtain a handgun. As units shifted around, so did a floating supply of any and all types of handguns made in Europe from circa the turn of the century until the then present day. These would later turn up as captured weapons since many American soldiers had the same idea about a handgun being useful.

General officers received special sidearms in the U.S. military, this continued into recent times, and possibly to this day. You can see a really ornate USAF issue Smith and Wesson auto, with gold engraving, that belonged to an AF general on display at the NRA museum.

 

[Texas Star]

Japanese officers in WW2 simply purchased whatever sidearms they wanted. Some bought Nambus, but Colt, Smith & Wesson, and German made guns were also popular. Thus an array of American and European made handguns were picked up in the Pacific and used. I remember reading of a No.3 Russian Revolver, probably picked up during the Russo-Japanese war being thus captured.

German troops used whatever. As a practical matter, most experienced soldiers in an area where they might be partisans tried to obtain a handgun. As units shifted around, so did a floating supply of any and all types of handguns made in Europe from circa the turn of the century until the then present day. These would later turn up as captured weapons since many American soldiers had the same idea about a handgun being useful.

General officers received special sidearms in the U.S. military, this continued into recent times, and possibly to this day. You can see a really ornate USAF issue Smith and Wesson auto, with gold engraving, that belonged to an AF general on display at the NRA museum.

Gator-

The Japanese once used the No. 3 Russian .44. The Russians used a different one, with a spur on the trigger guard. The Japs had the later, sleek version. Both were single-action.

I know that Japs could buy a DWM copy of the Browning 1910 .32 from whichever govt. stores they shopped from. And they captured some Dutch Lugers in the East Indies, and some Colt .32 autos there. Also got some Brit guns in Malaya and Hong Kong, etc. Don't know if those were re-issued.

 

[Scary Gary]

HAL-5 squadron? Please explain; not a term that I know.

We were SEAL Team support .
HAL-5 ( Helicopter Attack Light Five ) .
We flew HH-1K Huey Gunships .
We were leftovers from Vietnam .
HAL-5 was disbanded in the early 90's .

 

[feralmerril]

I have a uncle still liveing who claims he was assigned to drive patton a few times. Uncle art lives in wisconsin and is I think, 93 or 94 years old. I also heard I belive he was #2 in the state to be drafted. My dad was about 4 years older than art. They were first generation german american kids, and didnt learn english untill they went to school. Art was a MP and also a dog man. His speaking german might have had to do with driveing patton a few times. Next time I go home I will have to talk with him on the subject. Several times he told me a story of haveing picked up a matched pair of colt saa`s that were nickle plated in germany. He said he lost them in a poker game on the ship home! I know he trained on the desert around yuma under patton.
One other unusual thing. We were from berlin wisconsin. Thats where the W.C. Russell mocassin shoe/boot company is. My family knew the owner. Somehow he got special permission to wear Russell boots from some officer and he also ordered boots for a few officers. Art froze his feet in the bulge.

 

[MajorD]

while in Iraq and Afhanistan we were specifically prohibited from carrying personal weapons, but if we captured something and it was then issued to us it was sometimes done(ak's if you were only issued a pistol) some guys carried non standard pistols if they were assigned to training indigenous forces and used the same pistolas the forces they trained. The most common gun in this scenario was the glock 19. Also saw some of our guys carrying the beretta 1951 as made under lisc. in egypt and iraq.

 

[Cooter Brown]

My father was in the 6th Army, 20th RCT, WWII Pacific theater. Sometime during the war his father found a civilian model Colt 1911 in a pawnshop or someplace in Decatur, Georgia. He sent it to Dad (not sure how). Dad carried the weapon for the duration of the war, and he said that at the end they put the fear of god in the returning troops about bringing anything like that back, so he left it with another man who was not leaving yet.

He had already sent back a Nambu pistol through the mail--I have it now.

Turned out he should have kept the Colt.

He told me "I could have brought a howitzer back. I never saw anybody's stuff being gone through the whole trip back."

 

[ddixie884]

I believe I remember reading an article by Askins in a gun mag years ago. In it he said he carried two handguns with him to Europe. They were a .45 target auto, and a NS in .38spl. I believe he said he shot the German with a .38/44 highway patrol metal tipped rnd. This was many years ago, and I could be dis-remembering.

Skeeter Skelton wrote about this, see his article on Askins at Dark Canyon.

 

[SteveA]

My grandfather carried a Smith .38 S&W in the 42nd Rainbow Division in WW I. Not sure which model, my Dad still has it. Dad was an infantryman in the 1st ID in WW II. Used an M-1 and traded a captured P-38 for a 1911a1 made by Ithaca which he managed to bring home.