LEAD vs JACKETED (bullets) only the facts please

[silvercn]

In a previous thread I learned that some ppl believed that lead bullets
were no more of a risk then jacketed bullets, (for reloading and target practice).

I would really like to see links regarding these issues.
Links that have really help you making your informed decision about what you shoot.

I don't want to hear the I've done it for 50 years and I am still here diatribe.
I know ppl that have used narcotics, smoked cigs, and drive fast (an they have no issues).
THATS NOT THE POINT! I want the facts not esoteric opinions!

I currently use jacketed bullets for my reloading hobby and practice ammo.
I see that lead (cast bullets) are much MUCH more affordable.
I just have concerns that I will compromise my health to save a buck.
I don't want to avoid cast bullets from my misdirected fear...
and I don't want to use cast bullets if I am ill-informed...
please help...

Can you give me facts &/or reasons in support of one or the other... ???
Thanks in advance...

 

[mtime7]

from what I understand, just taking some precautions is all that is needed.. Just like with anything that can cause health risks, sun exposure, to much drinking, driving on friday night, eating at MC D's, drinking to many sodas, or the other 1000's of things that can be bad for your health, salt I forgot salt, and the one thing that will definately cause premature death, a wife..

 

[Big Cholla]

silvercn: Well, I have been reloading for 55 years........ oh, you said not to do that . ............ Well, then here is what I have been taught by others in my shooting career re. lead bullets;

1) Inside range with improper ventilation can put unacceptable amounts of lead chemical compound residue in the air.

2) Probably just as harmful is the combustion residue from most primers.

3) All lead residues are harmful and accumulative. i.e. you never get rid of what you have absorbed.

4) Exposure can be eliminated and/or reduced to acceptable levels by; shooting with good ventilation, casting lead bullets with good ventilation, wash hands with cool (keeps your pores closed) water and soap after every shooting event specially after use of revolvers, don't eat anything or drink open drinks during a shooting session and use surgical gloves while cleaning all handguns.

5) By using the above precautions, one can shoot lead bullets in revolvers for an entire lifetime without incurring any lead problems.

............ Big Cholla

 

[john traveler]

I can only echo and reinforce Big Cholla's comments. I am also a long time and veteran shooter and bullet caster as are many members of this board. We know very few individuals that have suffered from the long-term exposure to lead and lead products. Outside of the lead mining and smelter operation industries, and before the current awareness of unventilated shooting range health issues, lead poisoning was a relatively rare health problem.

Please remember that the EPA and OSHA are relatively young creations of the Johnson administration of the middle 1960s. As a new Big Brother Government-Is-Watching-You creation of the bureacracy, they have done a lot of good, and also made a lot of questionable policies for public health. Many of their crusades are based on job security interests. Let's just say that removing lead from all paints since the late 1960s to avoid infants and children being exposed to lead toxins have been a good thing while worrying about lead exposure in public shooting ranges is one of their questionable actions. I have a surgeon friend with a private enclosed shooting range, and he has his blood lead levels tested every three months. Still normal, and still kicking after a generation of shooting hobbies. He is as likely to die of old age as any of us. I had a teacher neighbor who died in her fifties from blood poisoning contracted from working with fired ceramic pottery. Completely unexpected until I learned how toxic those materials were.

If you do a little research, you will find that a bit of common sense in our hobbies and working around lead materials goes a long way in helping to achieve our goals of dying at a ripe old age.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Wrong type of forum to ask these kinds of questions!

I don't want to avoid cast bullets from my misdirected fear...

I agree with your statement here. When you go to a gun forum and ask the questions you are asking about lead, what kind of answer do you think you are going to get from the average shooter?

What, do you think we all hold degrees in medicine or something?

If you have real concerns, go to a medical website, your own doctor or the hazardous materials website, if there is such a thing.

I have shot for years and years, almost 100% lead, I cast too. It wasn't until I shot in competition, indoors, with poor ventilation that my lead levels came up to a near dangerous level. No symptoms, just had it checked when I had a physical. It is just another test they do on the blood. Your doctor can prescribe the same thing. When things start to elevate, stop using lead altogether for a while.

Believe it or not, I had a friend that used to work in a lead mine. They tested regularly and when things got too high, they put the men to tasks that didn't directly contact lead. Lead levels would go down, then they would go back into the mine.

Unless you eat it, suck on bullets as a nervous habit, shoot inside and stick your head in the smoke as it dissipates, you probably aren't going to have a problem.

Personally, I think you are more likely to have a heart attack worrying about it!

Take a chill and see your family doctor. Ask him to check your blood level now, and put you on a regular check once a year or bi-annually.

FWIW

p.s. You could be the only one at your range that is wearing a respirator while they shoot, but hey, stranger things have happened!

 

[john traveler]

Skip, you CRACK ME UP!!

But your comments are right on!

Shooting sports, lead bullet casting and it's related possible health hazards are NOT for the Faint of Heart!

 

[Missionary]

Good morning
I am 60. My dad was involved with casting. I watched pots get hot since I was 4 years old. First bullets I fired were lead. I have been using and making my own lead loads since I ETS´d from the Army in 1974.
My last blood workup about 6 months ago showed no lead problems.. actually I am well below the standard.
Those are the facts for me. I have no idea how many thousands of cast bullets I have made and loaded and shot.
This has been highly discussed at Castboolits site and there is no one there suffering from high lead count I know of... 10,000 + casters must have some idea about this.

 

[odis]

I do all of my shooting out doors so I don't worry about it and OSHA and the EPA belong to Nixon not Johnson.

 

[Beemer-mark]

The wisdom for a few hundred years was that as long as the body excreted lead faster than the body took it in you were fine. It was when lead started accumulating that you were in danger. Lead is one of the few minerals not found in the body naturally, so somewhere along the line EPA decided ANY amount of lead was dangerous. Along with the EPA many doctors postulated the theory that exposure to any lead, even as the body excreted the lead, would lead to lifelong learning disabilities. This is based on the observed fact that many inner city children have learning disabilities, they live in old houses and old houses have lead paint. Children eat woodwork, lick walls and scrape the paint off cupboards for a snack.

I was the Engineering Manager for a lead acid (auto) battery manufactuer, blood samples were taken on a quarterly basis. The OSHA limit was 40 ppm (properly). Smelting (litterally) tons of lead, cutting, grinding, pasting, etc lead on a daily basis only a few could not keep below the 40 ppm limit. And that was because the failed to clean thier hands properly.
Leaded gasoline was a REAL source of lead poisoning. People in large cities used to have lead levels exceeding 500 ppm in their blood stream. That's a fact and that is why leaded gasoline was outlawed. It is probably also the reason why most people in large cities have severe learning disabilities.
Lead testing and removal is now a multi-billion dollar business in the US. Government funding to educate the millions of children who ate the woodwork is big business.
Finally, the air filtration in indoor shooting ranges is dictated by the State and Federal EPA. Remember the standard is zero (or as low as modern scientific means can measure it). How much lead do you think is actually vaporized when a lead bullet is fired? At worse some is left on the barrel lands but I really doubt any is vaporized into the air. Certainly not enough to be measured. For those people who have had their blood lever checked and the findings were positive do a really test. Stay away from shooting for a month or two and get your blood checked. Then shoot lead bullets in an indoor range every day for a month and have it checked again. I'll bet the difference is zero. The amount of lead in your body when you started wasn't zero and it probably is the same when you finish.
So rather than asking people on a gun forum if lead is bad, do some research and find one or two studies were (say) 40 year workers in a lead acid battery factory where studied.

 

[kenjen]

i think that as long you don't eat any bullets and wash your hands after using, you should be ok.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Finally, the air filtration in indoor shooting ranges is dictated by the State and Federal EPA. Remember the standard is zero (or as low as modern scientific means can measure it). How much lead do you think is actually vaporized when a lead bullet is fired? At worse some is left on the barrel lands but I really doubt any is vaporized into the air. Certainly not enough to be measured. For those people who have had their blood lever checked and the findings were positive do a really test. Stay away from shooting for a month or two and get your blood checked.

Well, Mark, I have to politely agree and disagree here. Following and dictation is two different things altogether. I know that our indoor range is neither controlled nor checked for that matter. Of course, I live in a rural type area now. No major cities within a 3 hour drive. I did grow up in Detroit and L.A so maybe the other part of your post I can agree with, you know, the learning disability thing!

As for the lead level going down, I can tell you that that is just what has happened to me. Shooting competition, lead bullets and indoor, there is much more vaporized lead in the air at those times than if you shoot by yourself.

10 guys on the line, each shooting 12 shots in 20 seconds and all with lead bullets can put a big cloud in the air. One that no air handler can manage. My blood level was 32PPM when I first had it checked. I was shooting competition every week and the range officer when I wasn't shooting. That meant that I was on the range even when I wasn't shooting. Then, I practiced at least once a week, which consisted of running the course of fire twice at least, plus my loads that I was working up for other things, plus reloading, plus cleaning brass, plus casting and lubing. So, I had my hands on a lot of lead and my lungs in a lot of vaporized lead.

I took a month off to see what would happen to my blood levels and they came down to 25PPM. So, I guess I kind of proved your theory, it does matter.

To the average shooter, under 100 rounds per session, by their selves in the range, you may not have a problem. The fact is though, shooting lead indoors does matter.

 

[SMSgt]

"3) All lead residues are harmful and accumulative. i.e. you never get rid of what you have absorbed."

Not true as I found out. There is a treatment for it, involving cleaning (filtering) the blood of heavy metals. Sorry, don't know the name of the treatment.

I reload lead bullets almost exclusively. I take the simple precautions: Keep fingers away from face, wash hands afterwards (there is always "residue" on them), and after shooting, shower and wash clothing both of which would be needed regardless of bullet types.

I wouldn't concern myself with lead poisoning from reloading and shooting. It's the lead poisoning from being on the receiving end that's more of a concern!

 

[Chuck Jones]

Wash your hands after reloading or shooting and do not eat until you do.

Ventilation is good, more is better.

Wipe out the inside of, and blow your nose after a range session.

Keep lead oxidation and dust to a minimum, be carefull with any dust from the media if you tumble lead, and deprime before you tumble brass.

Bullets and priming compound are the 2 main sources of airborne lead so act accordingly.

/c

 

[Forrest r]

It's just more bs hype from uncle Sam. A misinformed world buys into it & then it can spin it to serve any purpose they desire.

As stated above leaded gas was the worst. Poor ventilation at indoor ranges are a concern, but not for reasons you think.

I'm more concerned with burnt plastic & breathing it at indoor ranges that lead. A lot of cast bullets just give off too much smoke when being fired. It's from the bullet lube & the powder being burnt. I've seen a lot of people shooting jacketed bullets in their guns have them release a lot of smoke when being fired also. Some powder makers use plastic as a filler for their gunpowder. You'd be amazed at the junk that comes out of the filters at indoor ranges.

Lead paint in houses is treated by just painting over it. To pass a section 8 inspection or have an older house inspected/treated for lead paint. They just paint over the old paint with new paint. The rule is no exposed/peeling paint.

When they find lead/lead paint outside the house they repaint that area. They put new topsoil over any contaminated soil. I can't remember anymore, it was either 2 or 4" of topsoil to cover the contaminated soil.

If you're that concerned about using lead bullets than just don't do it. There have been a lot of proven problems with lead thru out history. It's like anything else, is the risk worth the reward.

Did the Romans have problems? Absolutely!!!! They used to eat lead as a sweetener & use it for every day table ware. Namely drinking glasses & the acid in the wine would dissolve the lead & they'd drink it.

The old tin cans. They used to solder the cans together with lead. Again the acids in the foods would dissolve the lead & people would eat it.

Leaded gas. Another great one, smog kills. Kalifornia had the major problems, have led the pack on stupidity of lead & will continue to do so forever. The major cities on the coast caused up to use unleaded gas. They can to this day take soil samples in the San Francisco bay & show you when they stopped using unleaded gas. The gas fumes would give anyone more lead in their bodies than anything else. And yes the smog is terrible there.

How many water lines are in old houses & feed the water to the houses. They're put together using lead. Even after they quit using lead to seal tin cans they still used it for tubes of tooth paste for years afterwards.

I'm not going to bother with what I've done/shot for years, it doesn't matter.

If you really want to know what the epa thinks about lead & their quest to help our health, just watch what they do. Actions speak louder than words.

Make no mistake about it, the epa will step over a old dump site filled with lead, lead paint & other numerous health hazards to get at a gun club/shooting range to shut it down because their putting lead on the ground which will leach into the water supply poisoning people for 1000's of miles around. They'll go to that town & tell everyone how bad it is & force the range to close down. But yet the epa won't shut that same town's drinking water down even though there so concerned about that town's health. Under the very ground that they stand on is drinking water pipes put together with lead. Go figure!!!

Like I said before, if you're that concerned about lead, just stay away from it. Myself, I'll just make sure that I don't eat lead & wash my hands after handling it.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Their respective risk is directly related to how you handle and use each of them. Certainly you can minimize lead exposure due to inhalation by not smoking during or directly after handloading (I imagine there are some idiots that may actually smoke during the loading process!), shooting, cleaning, and by washing your hands well with a good phosphate based detergent (that removes the lead by complexation) or one with a citrus base and mild abrasive action, like GoJo, after handloading, cleaning or shooting.

It requires somewhat less effort on your part to handle jacketed bullets for handloading since there is less direct contact with lead. However, you will notice that some bullets, e.g. 45ACP 230 FMJ from certain manufacturers, may actually have lead exposed at the base. While this minimizes overall exposure, there is still lead contact. Another potential source of contamination is brass cleaning, because the brass will have been exposed to lead from firing due to the lead styphnate priming material. It will be there whether you use jacketed or lead bullets, and is an area where you need to practice good handling to minimize both inhalation of dust and contamination of the area where you do it.

During firing, indoor vs. an outdoor range is a significant consideration, over only some of which you will have any control. Indoor range management of dust and powder residue is a factor as is their air handling/filtration system. A significant portion of the contamination residue just ahead of firing positions comes from primer combustion (lead styphnate) and powder residue. Whether lead bullets or jacketed ones are being used is possibly significant, but it is overall range use that counts rather than your specific contribution. Some of the "clean" ammo is using lead free primers and "totally enclosed" bullets, but it is still less common that standard except where some high usage training facilities have required it. On outdoor ranges, you would prefer to have the wind blowing away from you, but more significant exposure would occur if after shooting, especially after cleaning (remember the primer residue), if you did not wash your hands and possibly your face too before eating or smoking. Digging through the range backstop for bullets or picking up spent brass also increases risk of contamination.

Are lead bullets more prone to increasing your lead exposure? Certainly from a potential contact and handling perspective they could increase your exposure risk if you use poor handling techniques. But it is not as much a factor as how you practice range and loading hygiene methods.

 

[OKFC05]

To add a bit to the above.
Lead can only be absorbed into the body if it is 1. finely divided or 2. in a soluble lead compound. You can actually eat a solid lead shot and it will pass through the body harmlessly and not be absorbed. (Ducks get lead poinsoning by eating the same lead shot because they have a gizzard and grind the lead into fine powder; you don't have a gizzard!)

All minerals in the body are naturally eliminated at a constant rate, so if your blood lead is too high, ceasing exposure will cause it to decrease, or you can get simple medical treatment.

The dust in an indoor range is easily breathed in and absorbed by the lungs. The worst hazard is sweeping the floor, which is why many ranges now forbid patrons to sweep up their brass. Cleaning the range is best done wearing a full gas mask. Due to the daily exposure, indoor range employees are the most likely to fail their lead test. An indoor range with inadequate ventilation is very hazardous.

Reloading and bullet handling is a minor risk; don't touch your face and wash your hands immediately you leave the reloading area. Casting bullets requires very good ventilation because of the soluble salts on old lead that boil off and should not be breathed.

Many of us that have been casting and loading lead for decades have been tested and found to have no significant blood lead. I have worked in a chem lab with things a lot more poisonous (like cyanide) than a lead bullet. Just don't beathe it or eat it.

 

[Rule3]

Well class, lets all go to the OSHA site and read what they have to say.
Some folks have already stated most of the facts. So wash your hands, arms and face after shooting. Take a shower and wash your hair and be sure not to buy any Chinese products.

I think one of greatest exposures is the media used for tumbling and cleaning brass. I read about folks who claim never to change it or use it for years! There is such a high concentration of crap in there, change it often. It's so cheap why not??

"Just the facts Mam"

Substance data sheet for occupational exposure to lead - 1910.1025 App A

 

[bmcgilvray]

Back in 1969 I swallowed a lead Benjamin .177 pellet and I'm still alive.

Lately though, have noticed that I have this prehensile "tail" growing at the base of my spine.

 

[mtgianni]

As for the lead level going down, I can tell you that that is just what has happened to me. Shooting competition, lead bullets and indoor, there is much more vaporized lead in the air at those times than if you shoot by yourself.

10 guys on the line, each shooting 12 shots in 20 seconds and all with lead bullets can put a big cloud in the air. One that no air handler can manage. My blood level was 32PPM when I first had it checked. I was shooting competition every week and the range officer when I wasn't shooting. That meant that I was on the range even when I wasn't shooting. Then, I practiced at least once a week, which consisted of running the course of fire twice at least, plus my loads that I was working up for other things, plus reloading, plus cleaning brass, plus casting and lubing. So, I had my hands on a lot of lead and my lungs in a lot of vaporized lead.

I took a month off to see what would happen to my blood levels and they came down to 25PPM. So, I guess I kind of proved your theory, it does matter.

To the average shooter, under 100 rounds per session, by their selves in the range, you may not have a problem. The fact is though, shooting lead indoors does matter.

I believe that the lube has a larger cloud than lead bullets do. The average shooter is in much more danger from lead sulphate in primer dust than from using cast bullets, IMO. Armorers that only shoot jacketed have been diagnosed with high levels of lead from cleaning primer residue. Be very careful about tumbling media and how that is treated as far as putting particulates in the air and wash hands and face after reloading, shooting, casting and cleaning. Don't smoke, eat or keep open drink containers in a room when tumbling brass or casting or cleaning and you will test out as most of us casters do with a pb level of less than 10.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Short Summary re: Lead for Handloaders

Don't sniff it, lick it, taste it, eat it, smoke near it, play with it or touch it more than necessary (and wash your hands really well afterwards).

[This advice can also be used for teens on prom night]