Treasury .38Spl load, 110gr.+P+ JHP (updated with pics)

[Sonny Crocket]

I recently found out my agency used to use this load from the early '80s, after switching from 158gr.LRN, till we went to 9mms agency wide in the mid '90s. First in S&W model 10s then later 64s. The supplier was Winchester.

I always read it and the "Chicago" or "Bureau" load, 158gr.+P LSWHP, were the two popular loads of the time. What was it's real rep in your opinion and how does it stack up today compared to what we have available?

My preferred choice is the NYPD load, Speer Gold Dot 135gr.+P JHP. I'm just wondering from a historical point of view.

 

[stiab]

I'm just wondering from a historical point of view.

I've seen several posts on this forum and others stating how hot the Treasury load was, but in my opinion that is just urban legend, and a case of people repeating what they have read, without having any real knowledge.

I was issued the box below in the 1970's, and chronoed it a few years ago. It averaged only 1077 fps from a 4" M15. In comparison, Super Vel of the same vintage, same bullet weight, averaged 1221 fps from the same gun on the same day. Maybe the Treasury load got better over the years, but based on my testing is was not as hot as many internet posters would have us believe.

 

[photoman]

Funny thing... The current production CorBon 110gr JHP+P runs around 1200fps out of a 4" barrel.

 

[Sonny Crocket]

I wasn't told how hot it was, but was told through a privately owned model 38 Bodyguard Airweight it only took 500 rds to stretch the frame enough to ruin it.

I'll post some pics soon of the box label.

 

[bmcgilvray]

30 years ago I chronographed some Winchester Western 110 grain JHP from a box just like Stiab's to find that a 10-shot string averaged exactly 1100 fps from a 4-inch Model 10. About the same time I tested Super Vel 110 grain JHPs which averaged 1237 fps from the same 4-inch Model 10.

I retested the Super Vel just last summer and ammunition from the same lot as was used 30 years earlier, fired over the same chronograph as 30 years earlier, and fired in the same revolver as 30 years earlier, gave 1195 fps this time.

Apparently the old Super Vel would whip the old Treasury Load.

 

[Sonny Crocket]

Here's the pics of the box of ammo we used at my agency.

 

[Tommy B]

Sonny, that looks like the ammo we used when I was with IRS-CID in the early/mid '80's.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've seen several posts on this forum and others stating how hot the Treasury load was, but in my opinion that is just urban legend, and a case of people repeating what they have read, without having any real knowledge.
I was issued the box below in the 1970's, and chronoed it a few years ago. It averaged only 1077 fps from a 4" M15. In comparison, Super Vel of the same vintage, same bullet weight, averaged 1221 fps from the same gun on the same day. Maybe the Treasury load got better over the years, but based on my testing is was not as hot as many internet posters would have us believe.

It's my opinion that ammo being "hot" is more the results of what it was being compared to than it being an urban legend. The lighter bullet allowed the round to generate more velocity than the available ammo of the time. A 158gr bullet traveling at 850 fps must have made the 110gr load @just under 1100 fps seem hot back then. Now something pushing the 110gr bullet to over 1200 fps is truly hot IMO although 23,500 CUP doesn't sound all that excessive, again, IMO. 23,500 CUP is probably right around 20,000 PSI which is the current .38 Special +P pressure limits. I can't see a round generating only 23,500 CUP stretching a frame all that quickly. (but who knows if that's just a CYA statement or not)

 

[stiab]

It's my opinion that ammo being "hot" is more the results of what it was being compared to than it being an urban legend. The lighter bullet allowed the round to generate more velocity than the available ammo of the time.

My point was that the early Treasury ammo and the Super Vel were concurrent offerings. You could carry the issued Treasury ammo or buy your own Super Vel. In comparison, the Super Vel was hot, the Treasury in same bullet weight was not.

 

[RedBerens]

I checked the Winchester LE site, and they list this load at 1155 fps. I'm assuming that is from a 4" bbl.

 

[Sonny Crocket]

The way I read the box it was stating 15%-20% higher than the industry standard of 23,500 CUP. Is that correct?

I talked to the retiree that gave me this box, and it was his nickel model 38 Airweight Bodyguard that got ruined because of this ammo in 500rds. He's a lifetime shooter, former head firearms instructor, and was in charge of all our firearms care/maintenance, a S&W armorer too. He's probably forgotten more than I know, when he tells me something, I believe it.

I'm just wanting to share what I heard about this ammo and my agency's use of it. Everyone seems to have their own experience, this is my agency's experience.

 

[xcop]

+p+

The Winchester and Federal can destroy an airweight or an older flat latched j frame in not very many shots. If you look at the pressures some lots will come very close to proof level. There is a clear warning not to use in airweights on the box. Newer j frames ...........after say 78 or so that I have seen have handled it well but only steel frames. We were always told that if we carried this ammo in an airweight to figure it was ruined after 2 cylinders worth.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm going by memory here, but thought that regular Plus P was 22,400 CUP. So the ammo shown at 23,500 is above that and is the pressure of that ammo. (IF I'm right...)

The box also says that that figure is approximate. I think SAAMI requires more definite pressures for commercial ammo.

I suspect that at a certain point, very much more pressure becomes suddenly quite a bit more stressful to guns. The straw that broke the camel's back...

T-Star

 

[alwslate]

I have a box of the Winchesters exactly like the box in the pic. Just as
a quick check I chronoed two shots from my old well used 5" 38/44 HD.
1098 & 1089. This gun usually runs a bit slower than some of my newer
4" guns. This was last fall. About two weeks ago I tried two shots
from my 1 7/8" 60-7. 1046 with muzzle elevated first to position powder against the primer and 953 with powder positioned against
the bullet prior to firing.