So very true. Bullet placement is many times more important than bullet shape or construction.
38spl Ammo...Why So Much Junk?
- Thread starter amd6547
- Start date
I know of several cases where perfect placement with the 158gr and 200gr RNL rounds didn't do the job.
A former Chief here bounced two, I say again two, RNL bullets off of a bad guy's face without any effect.
They also tend to ricochet off of barriers, like windshields.
I wouldn't use RNL for anything but paper-punching, by choice that is.
A former Chief here bounced two, I say again two, RNL bullets off of a bad guy's face without any effect.
They also tend to ricochet off of barriers, like windshields.
I wouldn't use RNL for anything but paper-punching, by choice that is.
That must have been one hell of a hard face. I don't think even my mother-in-law's mug could repel a 158 gr. RN. The only one I can think of that might would be the latest Supreme Court nominee.
Also, FWIW, the 'face' is not "perfect placement."
Also, FWIW, the 'face' is not "perfect placement."
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It is when you are aiming for it.
It is common for the RNL bullets to glance off of skulls, I know of two suicide attempts that didn't work, even with a contact shot, due to RNL being launched from a snub.
flop-shank
US Veteran
Jim Cirillo wrote about two stakeout cops who grabbed an armed robber by the collar and emptied their snubs in his face at point blank range. None of the 158 gr. RNL made it into the guys cranial vault. As the perp awoke from being cold cocked by the bullets, he asked for a hanky. He blew his nose and a bloody bullet came out. 
Some of you guys can act like every bullet/cartridge is equal, but street cops who see multiple shootings usually think otherwise. I'll listen to the Cirillos of the world when they say that 158 gr. RNL sucks.
As cartridges get harder hitting shots to the face and cranial vault ought to increase in effectiveness. There is going to be a world of difference between a 125 gr. .357 JHP and .38 RNL.
Some of you guys can act like every bullet/cartridge is equal, but street cops who see multiple shootings usually think otherwise. I'll listen to the Cirillos of the world when they say that 158 gr. RNL sucks.
As cartridges get harder hitting shots to the face and cranial vault ought to increase in effectiveness. There is going to be a world of difference between a 125 gr. .357 JHP and .38 RNL.
That guy wasn't knocked out by the bullets, he fainted in surprise from running into the cops and then getting shot, apparently this wasn't part of his robbery plan.
Seriously. I personally talked to Jim about that shooting at a training class I attended that he was teaching.
... and that was 11, as in eleven, hits to the face on that bad guy, without effect (I don't count fainting as an effect).
Seriously. I personally talked to Jim about that shooting at a training class I attended that he was teaching.
... and that was 11, as in eleven, hits to the face on that bad guy, without effect (I don't count fainting as an effect).
No, it is not. Aiming at someone's face, or toe for that matter, and hitting it, then blaming the bullet for not stopping the target is not "perfect placement." It isn't the bullet's fault if the shooter doesn't have a clue where to place it.
I swear, Bob Milek must have risen from the dead.
There have been SHOTGUN suicide attempts that have failed...care to blame that on the pellets?
bmcgilvray
Member
"Glance" may be the key word here. What about the angle involved?
Never heard the story of the guy receiving 11 hits to the face with .38 Special round nose lead but fainting, at the very least, would be a plausible reaction to such trauma.
Never heard the story of the guy receiving 11 hits to the face with .38 Special round nose lead but fainting, at the very least, would be a plausible reaction to such trauma.
First, in a gunfight you might have to shoot at what you have available, in this case the bad guy was using a car for cover, so the face was the best "center of available mass" available. Shooting for this target and hitting it two out of three rounds during the course of an actual gunfight is pretty damn good shooting.
As to what you would think is "perfect" placement, I have no idea. I know from observation that shooting bad guys in the face is a pretty good spot to pick if you have to put someone down right now.
If you are talking upper chest type "center mass" shooting, well then I know of several cases where RNL and RNFMJ bullets have glanced off of sternums and ribs, thus not getting deep enough to do the job.
... and, I have seen suicide attempts where birdshot was used without success, rare but it happens. Birdshot is for birds, not defense against people, I won't comment on munitions choice when one is trying to kill themselves except to note that birdshot may be a poor choice, so yes, I would blame the pellets.
There are not many absolutes when it comes to wound ballistics, but there are definitely trends, and RNL bullets have enough of a well documented very poor track record in actual OISs that no one who examines these sorts of things can come to any other logical conclusion than RNL is a very poor choice for defensive ammunition.
Wayne Dobbs
Member
bmcgilvray,
What load were you using with your RN and SWC bullets and what revolver were you shooting them from?
What load were you using with your RN and SWC bullets and what revolver were you shooting them from?
stantheman86
US Veteran
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158 gr. FMJ .38 is nothing to sneeze at.......I don't know why people feel 158 or 130 gr. .38 +P HP or even FMJ is "inadequate" for defense.
If you feel there is no good .38 Special for defense out there, step up to a .357!
I would guess the majority of shooters, aren't "serious" shooters and probably get to the range to plink around every couple months or so.......they just buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf. Look at what's selling on the online sources, it's all UltraMax .38 LRN reloads, Armscor FMJ, and American Eagle red box. People who CCW may buy one box of the "good stuff" just to load the gun with when they carry, sometimes not even. The ammo makers make the training ammo because that's where they make their money.
The best I can do is $260 per 1,000 of American Eagle 130 gr. FMJ, I guess I'll have to live with that. I mean, what doesn't cost these days.....I spend $50 to fill my tank, $7 for a pack of smokes and $3 for an energy drink......we struggle to make out dollars go farther but in the end you gotta pay to play, I guess.
If I only had what I "needed" for hunting, CCW and HD, I would have 1 12. ga. shotgun, 1 .357 snub revolver, 1 30-06 bolt action rifle, and a couple thousand rounds for both. Range shooting and gun collecting are the "fun" parts of being a firearm enthusiast and that's where the cost racks up.
If you feel there is no good .38 Special for defense out there, step up to a .357!
I would guess the majority of shooters, aren't "serious" shooters and probably get to the range to plink around every couple months or so.......they just buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf. Look at what's selling on the online sources, it's all UltraMax .38 LRN reloads, Armscor FMJ, and American Eagle red box. People who CCW may buy one box of the "good stuff" just to load the gun with when they carry, sometimes not even. The ammo makers make the training ammo because that's where they make their money.
The best I can do is $260 per 1,000 of American Eagle 130 gr. FMJ, I guess I'll have to live with that. I mean, what doesn't cost these days.....I spend $50 to fill my tank, $7 for a pack of smokes and $3 for an energy drink......we struggle to make out dollars go farther but in the end you gotta pay to play, I guess.
If I only had what I "needed" for hunting, CCW and HD, I would have 1 12. ga. shotgun, 1 .357 snub revolver, 1 30-06 bolt action rifle, and a couple thousand rounds for both. Range shooting and gun collecting are the "fun" parts of being a firearm enthusiast and that's where the cost racks up.
Sometimes.
I once helped work a call where a young man tried to kill himself with a 12 gauge using #8 shot, he was missing everything from his chin/jaw to the bridge of his nose, and sat on the gurney conscious as he breathed through a tube.
We had to keep an eye on him to keep him from getting combative with the ER staff.
I know an LEO who was shot twice, struck from the face to the stomach, with #4 birdshot, at across the room distance, although obviously wounded he was able to avoid the shooter, return fire, and self-evac to a safer place.
I know that John Farnam has also written about the mistake of counting on birdshot for defensive use, but I can't find the quip right now.
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f8 crusader
Member
I am new to this forum and I read your thread with interest, I agree with you about the quality of today's 38 special ammo, I can not believe the price for the bottom of the barrel 38 special 130 gr FMJ, we used to consider this ammo as nothing but useless and I was surprised that we issued it to marine aviators with the good old reliable Smith M10.
I also consider the SWCLHP 158 plus + ammo as the best there is, of course the ammo is very hard to find, I belong to a forum here in VA and several month ago I attempted to sell a dozen boxes of the FBI load, the price was more than reasonable but I found no interest, it seems like the market here is with the latest black plastic junk guns that are in style, it's a shame that some people do not appreciate good ammo when it's being offered.
I started this thread after a night of searching online sites for 38 spl ammo, and finding the same selection of RNL and FMJ rounds from the same makers...seems like such a waste of production capacity. Even if these makers didnt go all out with reasonably priced FBI-type +P loads, why not decent SWC solids instead of RNL? Who would buy FMJ given any other alternative?
I did find some Aguila 158gn JHP which seems like decent shooting ammo. And, the Winchester "personal protection" 125gn +P JHP seems like one of the only reasonably priced SD loads from any major maker.
I have reloaded in the past for 44mag...The current ammo situation in 38spl ammo has encouraged me to order a die set and roll my own...In other words, the failure of the major ammo makers to provide decent product at reasonable cost has made me walk away from their product altogether...
This situation amazes me...One of the most useful and versatile cartridges of all time relegated to fairly useless loads, while the shelves of the local shops are loaded with what must be low volumn niche rifle cartridges (ammo which hardly sold at all even during the ammo crunch) and overpriced dollar-plus per round magic bullets.
I did find some Aguila 158gn JHP which seems like decent shooting ammo. And, the Winchester "personal protection" 125gn +P JHP seems like one of the only reasonably priced SD loads from any major maker.
I have reloaded in the past for 44mag...The current ammo situation in 38spl ammo has encouraged me to order a die set and roll my own...In other words, the failure of the major ammo makers to provide decent product at reasonable cost has made me walk away from their product altogether...
This situation amazes me...One of the most useful and versatile cartridges of all time relegated to fairly useless loads, while the shelves of the local shops are loaded with what must be low volumn niche rifle cartridges (ammo which hardly sold at all even during the ammo crunch) and overpriced dollar-plus per round magic bullets.
slowburninsteve
Member
slowburninsteve
Member
I have several loads for my .38 Specials, and prefer the 'ol 158 grain LSWCHP +P for one big reason.....most revolvers with fixed sights are still adjusted to shoot at point of aim with 158 grainers. The nastiness of how they open up on inpact is just topping on the cake!
Steve
Steve
JC4013
Member
The first load I was issued was a 158 grn RNL and I didn't feel undergunned, but then I didn't know any better at the time. For years I carried the FBI load in either a Model 36 or 2.5 inch barrelled Model 19 and in the four inch model. Didn't feel undergunned then either and still would not today. Later I went to the 125 grn JHP when I read some of the Marshall/Sanov materials. That's what I was carrying when I worked a shooting in which a teenager was shot above the right eye about halfway between the brow and the hairline at a distance of about five feet with the FBI load. The bullet mushroomed beautifully and exited about two inches behind his left ear. The round had traversed the skull without ever penetrating. Admittedly 16 year old teenage boys have hard heads, but not that hard. I do not fault the round, but accept it was a unique shooting with a unique outcome. While I still had confidence in the round, about a week later I traded for a S&W 4013TSW and I've stayed with one of the 4013 models since because it works for me and I have confidence in the round when I make the correct choices based on scientific and anecdotal evidence.
On another subject, someone commented they have never heard anyone question whether highly customized handguns should be employed as self-defense weapons. I have. And some customizations, especially done by gunsmiths without the proper skills, can get you into trouble in court if there's a problem with the shooting and a good lawyer can find something wrong in just about every shooting if he wants to. Any modification that makes a weapon less safe opens doors better left closed if you have to defend your actions in court. Fortunately, many of the modifications that were considered pretty exotic even a decade ago are standard from the factory.
As to reloads, they are a very, very, very bad idea as a defense load. Someone said they had never known of the ammunition to become an issue. Again, I have. It doesn't happen often and generally there are problems in the incident anyway, but it happens. I spent enough years as a police officer and as a prosecutor to know that when you use reloads you're just waving red flags that cannot in today's environment be ignored. Even if you overcome criminal issues, you may still face civil liability and could be even more of a problem.
You do as you think best. It's your life and you know your comfort level. I don't. As for me, my self-defense weapon is just the way it came out of the factory. I'll use only factory made ammunition for defense and if the ammunition becomes an issue, I know every major ammunition maker will send experts to testify about their ammunition, how its made and how it functions. If somehow I make a mistake, I want all the help I can get, wherever I can get it.
jc4013
On another subject, someone commented they have never heard anyone question whether highly customized handguns should be employed as self-defense weapons. I have. And some customizations, especially done by gunsmiths without the proper skills, can get you into trouble in court if there's a problem with the shooting and a good lawyer can find something wrong in just about every shooting if he wants to. Any modification that makes a weapon less safe opens doors better left closed if you have to defend your actions in court. Fortunately, many of the modifications that were considered pretty exotic even a decade ago are standard from the factory.
As to reloads, they are a very, very, very bad idea as a defense load. Someone said they had never known of the ammunition to become an issue. Again, I have. It doesn't happen often and generally there are problems in the incident anyway, but it happens. I spent enough years as a police officer and as a prosecutor to know that when you use reloads you're just waving red flags that cannot in today's environment be ignored. Even if you overcome criminal issues, you may still face civil liability and could be even more of a problem.
You do as you think best. It's your life and you know your comfort level. I don't. As for me, my self-defense weapon is just the way it came out of the factory. I'll use only factory made ammunition for defense and if the ammunition becomes an issue, I know every major ammunition maker will send experts to testify about their ammunition, how its made and how it functions. If somehow I make a mistake, I want all the help I can get, wherever I can get it.
jc4013
I also wish they still had 158gr SWCs as common as they used to be, especially the +P variety, I see that all of the big name manufacturers have dropped that load from their production.
I remember when you couldn't go in a gun shop without finding stacks of .38 WC and SWC ammo, now for the most part you can't find either unless you shop the internet and special order.
My understanding is that they make what sells well, if it doesn't sell as well they quit making it.
I'd be surprised if many shooters nowadays at all know much about the 158gr +P LSWCHP loads, and decent the track record they have in real life shootings.
I remember when you couldn't go in a gun shop without finding stacks of .38 WC and SWC ammo, now for the most part you can't find either unless you shop the internet and special order.
My understanding is that they make what sells well, if it doesn't sell as well they quit making it.
I'd be surprised if many shooters nowadays at all know much about the 158gr +P LSWCHP loads, and decent the track record they have in real life shootings.
Check Buffalo Bore for the full WC, std vel. and for the 158Gr. SWCHP +P (gas checked) and std. 158gr.SWCHP. Expect HOT loads on both of the 158Gr.
