Why not .357 for home defense

[38-44HD45]

I just purchased a 686-4(P) for my home defense gun and have it loaded with .38+P Speer Gold Dot 135 grain. I have some 125 grain Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum rounds...would those be considered "full house" loads? Are those on the same level with the Remington and Winchester 125 grain "full house" loads? I also was somewhat afraid of the noise/flash level inside and that's why I put in the .38+P's. I'm reconsidering now, based on this thread, and may put the .357's back in...just wondering if these are the ones that are so loud and throw the flames...???

I've not chronoed any of the most recent production Speer 125s, but the last time I ran some, they were "full house" loads, running in the 1400fps. range from a 4" barrel, but you won't know until you launch some over some chronograph screens. Remington's SJHP 125s usually run a little faster, as do Cor-Bons, and Federals a little slower, but I can't speak to what WW does. I can tell you that most of the current generation of high-end self-defense ammo is loaded with low-flash powders, so flash should not be a big issue.

 

[jimmyj]

Over-penetration inside a house is a "Going To Happen" down side.
Recently observed a 130gr FMJ target round fired from a S&W Model 638 in a bedroom. Bullet went though the outside wall which was wood frame with alum siding and into a wooded area approx 100 feet away.

 

[Goffman]

but not a very casual shooting indoors.

Hard to imagine a casual indoor shooting.

 

[old bear]

The "FBI" load has a good reputation for stops. I have more than enough confidence in it.

With the deepest respect to the agents involved, ask any of these brave men if the 38 Special LSWC-HP +P was enough when they had to shoot Platt and Madex (Sp) in Miami, Fl.

 

[vytoland]

.357 magnum at home, indoors, at night.................excessive flash, noise and penetration.

 

[Kanewpadle]

.357 magnum at home, indoors, at night.................excessive flash, noise and penetration.

You won't notice either the flash, noise, or over penetration.

Things aren't going to happen like you imagine. They will fall apart causing you to reevaluate and adjust accordingly. You may have to take an other than ideal shot with the risk of overpenetration or missing completely.

But to stand and do nothing will bring nothing but bad.

Doesn't matter if it's a 380 or 500 mag, no plywood or sheetrock is going to stop a bullet.

 

[Kanewpadle]

With the deepest respect to the agents involved, ask any of these brave men if the 38 Special LSWC-HP +P was enough when they had to shoot Platt and Madex (Sp) in Miami, Fl.

Yeah, that didn't turn out too good did it?

 

[Kanewpadle]

Over-penetration inside a house is a "Going To Happen" down side.
Recently observed a 130gr FMJ target round fired from a S&W Model 638 in a bedroom. Bullet went though the outside wall which was wood frame with alum siding and into a wooded area approx 100 feet away.

Well said JimmyJ.

Let's see here......... Overpenetrate/Miss? Or protect my family?

Gee that's not to hard to understand is it?

 

[bmcgilvray]

Years ago I attended the scene of a shooting with a friend who was the chief investigator for our county's sheriff's office and observed someone dead in the floor, shot through the heart with a .357 Magnum. The revolver was a 4-inch Llama Comanche and the load was the Federal 158 grain jacketed soft point. After complete penetration, the bullet struck the sheet rock wall behind but only dented it, not having enough remaining energy to penetrate a single layer of drywall. I found the bullet on the floor, underneath a piece of furniture in the kitchen where the shooting occurred. It had scarcely been deformed and almost looked as if it could have been reloaded and used again.

Later, I was able to obtain ammunition from the box of Federal from which came the ammunition used in the shooting. I chronographed it in a 6-inch Model 27 and it averaged 1305 fps. I'm guessing it would have given 1250-1280 fps from the 4-inch Llama revolver.

I would have considered this to be a load prone to over-penetration problems but after completely penetrating a slightly built adult male it was pretty well spent.

It was the second shot fired. The deceased was drunk and assaulting his ex-wife as was his habit and she got tired of it. Her first shot missed however and passed unchecked the length of the house from the kitchen, through an interior opening, down a long living room, exiting the front of the house above the front window. The bullet would have passed through a layer of interior drywall and and exterior of wooden car siding at least. This was an older house and any additional insulation or layers of wall board were not determined.

 

[Centenniel]

With the deepest respect to the agents involved, ask any of these brave men if the 38 Special LSWC-HP +P was enough when they had to shoot Platt and Madex (Sp) in Miami, Fl.

I suggest reading a factual account of that gunfight. The main issue was the tactics used by the agents, not the weapons they were armed with. Mistakes were made, and thankfully, lessons were learned by the law enforcement community. A revolver, loaded with the 38+p FBI load DID end the fight.

 

[sgtvilla]

greetngs, new guy here

Just my 2 cents on hearing,
firing any weapon with no hearing protection sucks but sometimes you have no choice. I did 2 tours in Iraq back when it was fun and people shot at you. when I had a mission when I know before hand I was gonna make contact (i.e. a raid) I would roll out of the gate with surefire sonic defenders (on my last deployment) and with soft foamies on my first. Ironically, the times I had the mots gunfire around me, to include machine gun fire, it was when I was out on a routine patrol and I had been too lazy to get earpro in. Is my hearing messed up? absolutely, but a the time i was the least of my concerns when compared to saving my life. The way I see it, I am now alive to pretend I can't hear my wife when sitting on the couch

Having said that, my issue with .357 is not the noise, but the fact that I may not be able to engage as fast when fighting that recoil. I own a model 60 with a 2 1/4 barrel so you can feel it slam against your hand at every shot. Not as bad with .38 +p

At the end of the day, a regular .38spl with the proper shot placement will stop your burglar dead just as good.

At the end of the day I think you can carry what you can be confortable with. I probably haven't done as much training as I should have with a .357 and thats why I feel the way I do.

 

[junkman]

Sgtvilla - Thanks for your service. You raise a couple of good points.

 

[amd6547]

I use Double Tap 125gn 357mag in my Model 686-1 4", and it is also my carry load in my 19-4 2.5". I dont find the recoil to be a factor with either of them.
Personally, I think the hearing damage issue is overblown.
My Father served before and during WWII. He was exposed to incoming and outgoing cannon fire. He used just about every small arm in the US arsenal, as well as both 30cal and 50cal Browning machine guns and the 37mm cannon on his armored car. He also trained other troops on german automatic weapons like the MG42. He engaged in house/building clearing. His hearing seemed fine through the rest of his life.

 

[oldman45]

It all boils down to a personal choice of weapons and caliber.

As an accident & crime scene investigator and expert in reconstruction of the same, I have seen many indoor shootings since 1972. Some with shotguns, some with handguns and some with rifles. Over penetration happens and does not happen. I worked one case a few years back where an officer was shot with a .357 while in front of sliding glass doors. The bullet entered just below the heart and remained in the torso.
I worked one where a lady was shot from 20 feet with a 30/30 and there was not an exit wound.

A factor we encounter often is the actual type bullet used. Just because the next round in the gun is a Winchester does not mean the one fired was. It could have been a reload, it could have came from a mixed box or a different weight or grain. Often the projectile is never found or so distorted that a factual description is not possible. The words "believed to be" often appear in the reports.

I carried a .357 S&W for years, loved it and still do. It remains a prominent feature in my gun room. Now I carry a better gun in a better caliber and will use it day or night when ever a gun is brought into play by me. I do not worry about over penetration but worry about hitting the principle target. Many of the things mentioned about over penetration is advertising hype created to sell high priced ammo. Companies create a market for their product and over penetration is one of them. Millions of dollars are spent each yr making people want to feel they need a certain product.

Consider the odds:
1. What are the odds of your home being invaded at night while you are home? Most occupied home invasions are done to homes with lots of cash or drugs inside.

2. What are the odds of you having to shoot the invader?

3. What are the odds of you shooting the invader and a bullet passing through him and going through a wall into an adjoining room? Remember that the bullet has to penetrate the person's torso, missing bones and then go through at least two pieces of wall board.

4. Moreso, what are the odds of someone being in a 12 X 12 room on the other side of the wall where a bullet fired in another room has passed through a person, two walls and striking someone else? I have seen penetration happen in a couple times but not after going through the torso of a living being. Once was in a strip type office complex and the bullet penetrated two offices (four interior walls covered with panelling only) and did not hit anyone in either office. Another went from a bathroom in a City Hall into the Chief of Police Office where two people were seated. Again, none was struck.

With the average person being less than 20 inches wide, if they were standing parallel to the wall, they would only account for less than 15% of the total distance of a wall in a 12 X 12 room. That is assuming they are parallel to the wall. Turned sideways, the area drops to less than 10%.

Not saying stuff does not happen but just that it is not worth spending time worrying about.

 

[cabreco]

I've read so much about the danger of hearing loss from shooting a .357 indoors...

Unless you live in a high crime area where you are defending your home nightly, I wouldn't worry to much about hearing loss, and in any case forget reaching for the muffs!

I have a Model 19-5 with a 6" barrel. I've owned it since I was 21 living in N.J. (the hollow point banning state) I really never worried, if needed I would shoot what ever I had. (The arrogance of youth) Now that I'm out of N.J. I keep it loaded with Gold Dot 135 gr GDHP. My preference (if I can ever find it for the 357) is the Winchester PDX1 165 gr JHP. This is what I use in my .40 cal. 357 ammo is getting difficult to find for some reason.

The reason I like the PDX1 is the way the bullet deforms on impact. It will cause more body damage because of the claws. Although any bullet will pass through sheet rock. The deforming will also will slow down the projectile.

As far a hearing loss in a home defense situation, I don't worry at all about needing to discharge my magnum indoors...hell, my wife says I don't listen anyway!

 

[scooter123]

My opinion and mine alone.

There are thousands of LEO out on the streets that fired inside a residence and their hearing is fine. My hearing is fine and I have shot several times indoors.

According to the directions and my training with the dosimeter I use to track noise levels, hearing loss comes with sustained exposure to noise.

Sure, a sudden exposure to noise like a gun blast inside a closed auto or someone shooting a large caliber gun next to your ear could likely cause instant damage but not a very casual shooting indoors.

Decibels are higher in a vehicle with the radio turned up so high that the trees vibrate as the car passes by.

As to the penetration of walls by a .357, it can and likely does happen. However, name me just one case where someone was injured by having it happen. It is one of those things you hear about but never documented. I have never ran across it as yet in 38 yrs of investigating accidents and even crime scenes.

I have seen where a gun would accidentally discharge (in a police station no less) and the bullet travelled through a wall and into the office of the Chief. Two people were in that room and neither was hit. Of course, the Chief was not too happy.

I also know a man that had an accidental discharge in the end office of a strip center. The bullet went through TWO offices, again, both occupied and no injury.

Yes, I have seen where drive by shootings caused injury and death to people indoors. These were multiple shots fired by AK/AR type weapons. I have also seen hunters shot in the woods.

I will shoot indoors if it comes to stopping a perp. I will use a heavy caliber, be it a .45acp, a .40, a .357 or whatever is most ready.

We had a case this summer where a Home Invader beat and then stole the car of his victim. That victim naturally being a bit PO'd grabbed his handgun and shot at the retreating criminal from his front yard. He missed and one of those misses traveled about 200 feet, passed thru a layer of wood siding, the cladding, and the interior lathe and plaster and killed a neighbor preparing her dinner. He has since pled out to, I believe, Felony Manslaughter.

Point is, you are responsible for every single miss, whether it hits a family member or someone down the street you've never met. Use the caliber you are MOST familiar with and that you shoot best with.

Personally, since I don't reload, I don't do much shooting with 357 Magnums, it's just too expensive. However, I have shot with it enough to know that it has a VERY detrimental effect on my firing rate. Compared to 38 spl. or 38 +P, my firing rate has to be cut by 50 to 60% to get good hits with the 357 Magnum. BTW, that's with a 38 ounce model 620, in a lighter gun such as a model 60 my firing rate would probably slow down to 2 or 3 SECONDS per shot with the 357 Magnum. IMO, that isn't acceptable, especially considering that I can run 38 spl. into a sub 5 inch group at 30 feet at a 1/2 second interval with the 620.

Note, my experience is that old saw "practice with the 38 and use the 357 Magnum" is really TERRIBLE advice. It doesn't matter what you're shooting, missing is BAD NEWS. If you don't practice with the 357 Magnum, you WILL miss with it in Combat. The POI changes markedly and the difference in recoil has to be felt to be understood. The simple truth is the 357 Magnum is a caliber that is difficult to master, is a real "flinch builder", and requires a lot of practice to maintain proficiency with.

PS; while I'm pretty good with a 38, my carry choice is a 40 caliber Sig P239, that one I am scary good with at 40 feet or less. Because the 40 caliber is relatively cheap to practice with, the P239 gets shot a lot, more than any other handgun I own. So, I am not unfamiliar with somewhat snappy recoil, however my response to shooting a 357 Magnum the very first time was "holy smokes, that hurt". Since then I've learned to tolerate shooting the 357 Magnums but I don't think I'll ever master it to my satisfaction. So my choice for HD is the same as what I carry every day, my P239. Because it's the one gun I know I won't miss with even if the "target" is shooting back.

 

[oldman45]

We had a case this summer where a Home Invader beat and then stole the car of his victim. That victim naturally being a bit PO'd grabbed his handgun and shot at the retreating criminal from his front yard. He missed and one of those misses traveled about 200 feet, passed thru a layer of wood siding, the cladding, and the interior lathe and plaster and killed a neighbor preparing her dinner. He has since pled out to, I believe, Felony Manslaughter.

Point is, you are responsible for every single miss, whether it hits a family member or someone down the street you've never met. Use the caliber you are MOST familiar with and that you shoot best with.

Personally, since I don't reload, I don't do much shooting with 357 Magnums, it's just too expensive. However, I have shot with it enough to know that it has a VERY detrimental effect on my firing rate. Compared to 38 spl. or 38 +P, my firing rate has to be cut by 50 to 60% to get good hits with the 357 Magnum. BTW, that's with a 38 ounce model 620, in a lighter gun such as a model 60 my firing rate would probably slow down to 2 or 3 SECONDS per shot with the 357 Magnum. IMO, that isn't acceptable, especially considering that I can run 38 spl. into a sub 5 inch group at 30 feet at a 1/2 second interval with the 620.

Note, my experience is that old saw "practice with the 38 and use the 357 Magnum" is really TERRIBLE advice. It doesn't matter what you're shooting, missing is BAD NEWS. If you don't practice with the 357 Magnum, you WILL miss with it in Combat. The POI changes markedly and the difference in recoil has to be felt to be understood. The simple truth is the 357 Magnum is a caliber that is difficult to master, is a real "flinch builder", and requires a lot of practice to maintain proficiency with.

PS; while I'm pretty good with a 38, my carry choice is a 40 caliber Sig P239, that one I am scary good with at 40 feet or less. Because the 40 caliber is relatively cheap to practice with, the P239 gets shot a lot, more than any other handgun I own. So, I am not unfamiliar with somewhat snappy recoil, however my response to shooting a 357 Magnum the very first time was "holy smokes, that hurt". Since then I've learned to tolerate shooting the 357 Magnums but I don't think I'll ever master it to my satisfaction. So my choice for HD is the same as what I carry every day, my P239. Because it's the one gun I know I won't miss with even if the "target" is shooting back.

There is a large difference between areas. I have worked cases where shootings were an intentional act and people died as a result. These include the typical drive by where rounds go into houses, hitting a residence. One involved a person celebrating New Years by firing into the air. Unfortunately a bullet came down two blocks away and fatally struck a man. Shuch shooters are generally found guilty of manslaughter.

I agree that there will always be repercussions from any shooting but those like a self defense shooting in this area where innocent people are struck will usually be treated as an accident with no charges being filed. However, shooting at a fleeing suspect is never a good idea, especially if the perp is inside a vehicle and many yards away. In that type situation, look to be seriously charged in the event someone is injured or killed. The perp is no longer a threat, has left the property and it is then a case for police to handle and apprehend.

Also I totally agree with practicing shooting with the ammo you use for SD work. While I may not use JHP at the range, I still use the same brand ammo in the same grain. The feel, noise and accuracy is the same on the shooter.

 

[The Highlander]

I think the .357 is an excellent choice. I have a GP-100 and S&W L-Comp that are on duty as home defense and carry guns. They are also exceptional plinkers, and if hard-pressed, would do to feed my family if needed.

I load .357's in the cylinder, and have both .357's and .38's in speed loaders and speed strips. I also carry a .38 quite a bit, so the speed strips are all loaded with them, and would obviously work in a .357 as well.

I shoot my .357's well enough, actually the most accurate handgun I currently own is a 6" GP-100.

As others have said, don't overthink the issue. Carry what you can shoot well and have available.

Other favorites in my rotation are 10mm's, .45 ACP's, 9mm's, and a .357 SIG.

 

[Sportsterguy]

From Scooter "Note, my experience is that old saw "practice with the 38 and use the 357 Magnum" is really TERRIBLE advice. It doesn't matter what you're shooting, missing is BAD NEWS. If you don't practice with the 357 Magnum, you WILL miss with it in Combat. The POI changes markedly and the difference in recoil has to be felt to be understood. The simple truth is the 357 Magnum is a caliber that is difficult to master, is a real "flinch builder", and requires a lot of practice to maintain proficiency with."

I agree 100% with using the same caliber you practice with as your SD round. Using a gentler recoiling round in .38 does not prepare one for the snappier .357 load. There is a big difference between a .38 and a .357's recoil and noise level. A well placed +P .38 beats a a badly placed or missed magnum round everytime. The .357 can be mastered with practice and most folks don't practice enough IMO. .38 ammo costs much less and one can afford and practice more with it than .357's unless they reload and we know reloads are a no/no in a SD round. A good set of grips and double hearing protection help immensely when training with it. Most folks develop the flinching from the noise level. Just slow down, watch that darn front sight, pull the rigger and maintain the same speed as usual.

I thankfully have never had to shoot someone in my 38 years of carrying a weapon. I have shot many a deer, 2 elk and numerous other critters and know that two holes are better than one for a quick humane kill. The quicker the animal is bled out the faster it's down. Same with a human. I like a heavy 230 gr.+P Speer Gold Dot HP in .45 ACP that will penetrate through the vitals and leave an exit wound. I find it much more gentle to shoot than a .357 and can get my rounds off faster. I load that same SGD in 158 grains in my .357's for the same reason. Pentration, expansion and an exit hole.

In closing a .357 is still one of the best self defense rounds bar none. Like any other weapon used for self protection one should become profecient in its use and shoot it with accuracy. To do that you need to practice with the round you keep that weapon loaded with. Dry firing with a snap cap works wonders for trigger control between range sessions. The least of your worries should be a little hearing loss in a life or death situation.

JMO

 

[junkman]

Sportsterguy - Your comments make a lot of sense to me. In fact, I've been very impressed by all the replies to my original post. I too am a big fan of the 1911 pistol and the .45 ACP round. I shoot 230 gr. Speer Gold Dot HPs in mine. I've yet to have a malfunction, but the remote possibility that I would need to clear a jam at that worst possible moment does give me some concern. That is why I've been leaning toward the revolver as my choice for HD. Mine is a 4" 686. I too believe you should practice shooting with the same round you intend to use WTSHTF. So, right now I'm shooting the 125 gr. Remington R357M1 SJHP. So far, I'm not able to shoot accurate follow up shots as quickly as I can with the 1911, but I'm working on it. I actually enjoy the "buck and roar" of the full-house .357 Magnum, but it does wear on me after a little while. So before I start loading up my 686 with .38 Special +Ps for HD, I'm going to try a box of Remington 125 gr. Golden Saber BJHP .357s. With a published MV of 1220 fps versus 1450 fps for the R357M1, the GS might be a little easier to handle for quicker, ACCURATE follow-ups while still giving a ME over 400 fp. Having said all that, there is still something to be said for that heavy .45 slug!