Will an old S&W 38 special revolver do for home defense?

[John Patrick]

You mean like this one? We trained with these for house clearing many moons ago. Oh yes, it will even accept a bayonet. This is a USMC M870 Mk 1 in .12 ga. with a 21 inch barrel and rifle sights and an 8 shot magazine and the all important bayonet lug. Uses the same bayonet as an M16.

Here is one that just sold at auction. Lot Detail - (C) REMINGTON MODEL 870 WINGMASTER TRENCH GUN SLIDE ACTION SHOTGUN. Mine was cobbled together from pieces and parts found at gun shows over 30 years ago. I used it to teach a "Combat Shotgun Course" to the Navy at NS Long Beach.

I have a Mossberg 590 retro “trench gun” because I’m left handed with long guns. The Mossberg’s tang safety is lefty friendly. It has a bayonet on it as I write!

I prefer the gold bead sight since that’s what I’m used to.

Hello86,

A Remington, Mossberg or older Winchester pump shotgun is very reliable. But, like any tools, especially weapons, the user must be familiar with them. User error, like short shucking can cause issues.

A side by side is reliable but there are user issues too. For example, the barrels won’t close if your pajamas are caught in the breach.

A pump can be kept magazine loaded, chamber empty. The sound of a pump shotgun being shucked is a universal notice to “get out of my house!” recognized by s—theads world wide.

An over-under shotgun has the the reliability of a SxS but the disadvantage of having to be opened to a greater angle than the side by side to access the lower barrel. Slower, needs more space.

Reloading a break open gun for a third and fourth shot is significantly slower than shucking a pump. Most hunting style pumps hold four in the magazine with the plug removed. Home defense or trench guns six to eight. And then there are 1 3/4” buckshot and slug shells…

I hunt ducks and sometimes deer with a 12ga pump shotgun, if I’m goose hunting and I’m in a pit blind, where duck chances a slim or if goose season is open but duck season closed, I use a 10ga SxS. 12ga SxS for doves, pheasants, grouse, etc.

I kept a “spare” 12ga SxS near my bed for years. Four rounds of buckshot in the night stand. A 1911 on the nightstand. Never felt I was “under gunned” with the SxS.

 

[Hello86]

I have a Mossberg 590 retro “trench gun” because I’m left handed with long guns. The Mossberg’s tang safety is lefty friendly. It has a bayonet on it as I write!

I prefer the gold bead sight since that’s what I’m used to.

Hello86,

A Remington, Mossberg or older Winchester pump shotgun is very reliable. But, like any tools, especially weapons, the user must be familiar with them. User error, like short shucking can cause issues.

A side by side is reliable but there are user issues too. For example, the barrels won’t close if your pajamas are caught in the breach.

A pump can be kept magazine loaded, chamber empty. The sound of a pump shotgun being shucked is a universal notice to “get out of my house!” recognized by s—theads world wide.

An over-under shotgun has the the reliability of a SxS but the disadvantage of having to be opened to a greater angle than the side by side to access the lower barrel. Slower, needs more space.

Reloading a break open gun for a third and fourth shot is significantly slower than shucking a pump. Most hunting style pumps hold four in the magazine with the plug removed. Home defense or trench guns six to eight. And then there are 1 3/4” buckshot and slug shells…

I hunt ducks and sometimes deer with a 12ga pump shotgun, if I’m goose hunting and I’m in a pit blind, where duck chances a slim or if goose season is open but duck season closed, I use a 10ga SxS. 12ga SxS for doves, pheasants, grouse, etc.

I kept a “spare” 12ga SxS near my bed for years. Four rounds of buckshot in the night stand. A 1911 on the nightstand. Never felt I was “under gunned” with the SxS.

Thank you John Patrick.

Yes, I can imagine that under stress, tired, and just woken up during the night and an attack on one's home is in progress, it is probably easy to make mistakes and for example, short shucking the pump shotgun or the lever action gun.

And with a Ruger PC9, or Ar-15 or the like or a pistol, if one accidentally put some bullet wrong in the magazine or something like that, and I have to take out the magazine and start thinking about what's wrong and then fix it, there can be problems. Take to much time, and one might be dead.

Even if one can do it quite easily during stress-free times at the shooting range, under stress when your life and the lives of your family are in danger, it is probably easy to get a "short circuit" in ones head and no longer be able to think straight, so long as you not like the military has practiced so much that it sits in and goes automatically without one having to think, but I don't think most civilians have that much time to practice.

Although the 38 special revolver and side by side double barrel shotguns need practice as well, I suspect they are easier to handle in a stressful life threatening situation. Revolver, aim fire, open, load bullets, aim fire, do it again, very simple. Shotgun, fire twice, open, put in two more, aim fire, repeat. If the revolver jams, pull the trigger again for the next shot, if the shotgun jams, open, remove load and put tvo new in, although it is probably extremely rare for double barreled shotguns to jam.

Double barreled shotguns is slower, but maybe not so slow as many might thinks?: Double Barreled Shotguns for Home Defense. - YouTube

When I see that video, I can understand how it can be effective. If one wait for the enemy to come in and you shoot the two first, they will probably die immediately, and if there are more they will probably run away. If one need to reload, it can be done relatively quickly, and you can take cover behind something. More easy to remember how to reload.

Or is it perhaps wrong thinking on my part?

 

[AJ]

I have a Mossberg 590 retro “trench gun” because I’m left handed with long guns. The Mossberg’s tang safety is lefty friendly. It has a bayonet on it as I write!

I prefer the gold bead sight since that’s what I’m used to.

Hello86,

A Remington, Mossberg or older Winchester pump shotgun is very reliable. But, like any tools, especially weapons, the user must be familiar with them. User error, like short shucking can cause issues.

A side by side is reliable but there are user issues too. For example, the barrels won’t close if your pajamas are caught in the breach.

A pump can be kept magazine loaded, chamber empty. The sound of a pump shotgun being shucked is a universal notice to “get out of my house!” recognized by s—theads world wide.

An over-under shotgun has the the reliability of a SxS but the disadvantage of having to be opened to a greater angle than the side by side to access the lower barrel. Slower, needs more space.

Reloading a break open gun for a third and fourth shot is significantly slower than shucking a pump. Most hunting style pumps hold four in the magazine with the plug removed. Home defense or trench guns six to eight. And then there are 1 3/4” buckshot and slug shells…

I hunt ducks and sometimes deer with a 12ga pump shotgun, if I’m goose hunting and I’m in a pit blind, where duck chances a slim or if goose season is open but duck season closed, I use a 10ga SxS. 12ga SxS for doves, pheasants, grouse, etc.

I kept a “spare” 12ga SxS near my bed for years. Four rounds of buckshot in the night stand. A 1911 on the nightstand. Never felt I was “under gunned” with the SxS.

The Mossberg 590 is not a retro trenchgun. The Marines used them for a while before they went to the Benelli. The Mossberg 500's were used by the Navy in the mid 1980's for security work.

Have seen folks "short stroke" a pump gun before. Once they are properly trained it goes away.

Pajamas get in the way of loading a shotgun? Time to throw those away!

A SXS shotgun is not real user friendly in confined spaces.

 

[WR Moore]

I really don't know exactly how frequently more than two shotgun rounds are required to solve a home defense problem. That said, if your situation does, with a pump, you just cycle the fore end. With a double it's different. Consider this: many doubles don't have ejectors. Once you open the shotgun, you're likely to have to pluck the empties out. (OK, skilled users may be able to perform some gun-ninja evolution to make the empties fall out. OTOH, if it doesn't work, what's your plan B?)

Now that your chambers are empty, exactly where's your spare ammo? Did you remember to grab it? Not going to fumble it while getting it out of your jammy pockets? Can you load it by feel in the dark? Lotta opportunities for error.

BTW, the shot gun has myth and legend behind it to impress those it might be pointed at. Myth and legend, however, may well-and historically has demonstrated- variable relation to the real world. It ain't the magic wand of said myth & legend. IMPORTANT: don't load it with bird shot. Bird shot will still endanger others in another room and it may not incapacitate the attacker.

 

[rogerwnuss]

I would like to know your experts opinion on the matter. Do you think that an old 38 special S&W revolver, say from the 60s-70s or so (Model 10, 15, 67 and similar), is sufficient for home defense today in 2022? Or is outdated for that purpose?

I have learned that the police started using the more powerful 357 magnum, among other things, because newer cars became thicker and they needed more powerful ammunition to be able to shoot through cars to stop criminals and similar situations. And that civilians after marketing followed the police and started buying 357 magnum to a greater extent than 38 special.

But civilians who are not police and are not chasing criminals or have to shoot through thick cars and similar situations, would you say the 38 special is still a good option for home defense? Are they powerful enough for the common cases?

I'm thinking that lower recoil, being able to hit the target faster multiple times, and less risk of over-penetration and hurting innocents, seem like big advantages to using the 38 special. Also, don't be blinded by the flash in the middle of the night, and don't destroy ones hearing, with the thunderous bang of the 357 magnum indoors. And 38 special is cheaper ammunition, etc.

Whereas the advantage of the 357 is that it is more powerful and does more damage to the threat.

But is 357 overkill for civilians? Is it really necessary? If 38 special worked for the police to stop thousands of criminals in the past, then they should be sufficient as defensive weapons for ordinary civilians today in ordinary situations, or what do you think?

Perhaps there is also someone here who worked as a police officer at the time and has their own or others' experiences to confirm or deny regarding the 38 special as a home defense weapon?

Thanks.

"Old 38....from the 60s or 70s.......you sound like that girl in the music store , forty years ago, who held up a Beatles record to show her friend and said, hey look! Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings!
Been shooting all my adult life, had/have many autos, but my housegun is a 4" 38 spl service revolver. Just get a speedloader or two and practice reloads.....DA revolver is as foolproof as they get.

 

[John Patrick]

The Mossberg 590 is not a retro trenchgun. The Marines used them for a while before they went to the Benelli. The Mossberg 500's were used by the Navy in the mid 1980's for security work.

Have seen folks "short stroke" a pump gun before. Once they are properly trained it goes away.

Pajamas get in the way of loading a shotgun? Time to throw those away!

A SXS shotgun is not real user friendly in confined spaces.

The 590A1 is the military version.

The model I have is really called the “590 Retrograde” and comes with dark stained walnut furniture. My model has a brass bead sight. The A1 version of the Retrograde has the aperture rear and ramp front sight. Both accommodate the M16 bayonet.

Photos of the two models below.

 

[John Patrick]

Thank you John Patrick.

Yes, I can imagine that under stress, tired, and just woken up during the night and an attack on one's home is in progress, it is probably easy to make mistakes and for example, short shucking the pump shotgun or the lever action gun.

And with a Ruger PC9, or Ar-15 or the like or a pistol, if one accidentally put some bullet wrong in the magazine or something like that, and I have to take out the magazine and start thinking about what's wrong and then fix it, there can be problems. Take to much time, and one might be dead.

Even if one can do it quite easily during stress-free times at the shooting range, under stress when your life and the lives of your family are in danger, it is probably easy to get a "short circuit" in ones head and no longer be able to think straight, so long as you not like the military has practiced so much that it sits in and goes automatically without one having to think, but I don't think most civilians have that much time to practice.

Although the 38 special revolver and side by side double barrel shotguns need practice as well, I suspect they are easier to handle in a stressful life threatening situation. Revolver, aim fire, open, load bullets, aim fire, do it again, very simple. Shotgun, fire twice, open, put in two more, aim fire, repeat. If the revolver jams, pull the trigger again for the next shot, if the shotgun jams, open, remove load and put tvo new in, although it is probably extremely rare for double barreled shotguns to jam.

Double barreled shotguns is slower, but maybe not so slow as many might thinks?: Double Barreled Shotguns for Home Defense. - YouTube

When I see that video, I can understand how it can be effective. If one wait for the enemy to come in and you shoot the two first, they will probably die immediately, and if there are more they will probably run away. If one need to reload, it can be done relatively quickly, and you can take cover behind something. More easy to remember how to reload.

Or is it perhaps wrong thinking on my part?

Hunting, skeet shooting, hand thrown target… it’s all practice, and fun.

Like I wrote earlier, I had a SxS near my bed for years and never felt unprepared.

I suspect that learning to reload a SxS quickly, without taking your eyes off the threat and looking at the breach, would take much more practice than becoming proficient pumping a shotgun. A shotgun with ejectors rather than extractors will speed things up, but now your looking in a very different price range.

AJ took my pajamas comment too literally. But anything that gets between the barrels and the standing breach will prevent a double barrel shotgun from closing.

ETA: Probably the most significant loss in choosing a double barrel over a pump is the universally know sound of shucking a pump shotgun.

 

[Hello86]

I really don't know exactly how frequently more than two shotgun rounds are required to solve a home defense problem. That said, if your situation does, with a pump, you just cycle the fore end. With a double it's different. Consider this: many doubles don't have ejectors. Once you open the shotgun, you're likely to have to pluck the empties out. (OK, skilled users may be able to perform some gun-ninja evolution to make the empties fall out. OTOH, if it doesn't work, what's your plan B?)

Now that your chambers are empty, exactly where's your spare ammo? Did you remember to grab it? Not going to fumble it while getting it out of your jammy pockets? Can you load it by feel in the dark? Lotta opportunities for error.

BTW, the shot gun has myth and legend behind it to impress those it might be pointed at. Myth and legend, however, may well-and historically has demonstrated- variable relation to the real world. It ain't the magic wand of said myth & legend. IMPORTANT: don't load it with bird shot. Bird shot will still endanger others in another room and it may not incapacitate the attacker.

Thank you.

Yes you are right, I think most do not have ejectors, but many single shots does, like Henrys, that is one advantage with them: Henry Single Shot 12 Gauge - YouTube

But I think most over-under shotsguns do have ejectors.

Spare ammo, why not on the shotgun, or a belt? Take a look at the pictures.

Also, take a look at this!

"A break-open single-shot for home defense? According to Clint, it's a formidable
platform, if you know what you're doing and train accordingly.": GUNS Magazine How To Run Shotguns for Home Defense - GUNS Magazine


Have a look how he are using shotguns för defence: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw[/ame]

1:44 in, single shot shotguns for defence: Defensive Shotgun - YouTube

Wow just look have effective even a gun like that can be. With the ejector, with the extra ammo close at hand on the shotgun, with that practice, very quickly he can reload and fire again. Not as fast as a pump of course, but I would guess with that training fast enough for a home defense situation.

2:27 in, side by side shotgun: Defensive Shotgun - YouTube

Pretty effective with that, but oh my, it seems even more effective with the single shot shotgun!

 

[Hello86]

"Old 38....from the 60s or 70s.......you sound like that girl in the music store , forty years ago, who held up a Beatles record to show her friend and said, hey look! Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings!
Been shooting all my adult life, had/have many autos, but my housegun is a 4" 38 spl service revolver. Just get a speedloader or two and practice reloads.....DA revolver is as foolproof as they get.

Hihi

Yes good advice, thanks. What model do you have?

 

[Hello86]

A shotgun with ejectors rather than extractors will speed things up, but now your looking in a very different price range.

$70?: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Uvu0SVIdY[/ame]

Yes a single shot, but anyway.

But as I wrote to WR Moore, with the links, they seem effective anyway, maybe even more effective than double shotguns.

 

[BSA1]

The most used gun here at the farm is a H&R 12 ga. Single Shot Shotgun. The ladies like it due to it’s light weight. I have a sleeve on the stock that holds extra shells. It stands ready for use in the closet by the front door.

I would like to find another one and have the stock and barrel shortened to fit the ladies better. I only paid $100.00 for the one I have now. The mods will cost more than the gun did.

 

[OLDSTER]

I thought this thread asks the question of " Will an old .38 sp. revolver do for home defense". It's not about shotguns, auto rifles etc. So why the posts regarding all this other stuff ?

 

[John Patrick]

$70?: 20 Gauge Single Shot $70 Excellence - TheFireArmGuy - YouTube

Yes a single shot, but anyway.

But as I wrote to WR Moore, with the links, they seem effective anyway, maybe even more effective than double shotguns.

I’ve managed to kill three geese from a flock setting into decoys once that I recall using my SxS 10ga and loading from a cartridge belt. The 10ga has extractors.

I’ve killed three ducks or geese from a flock setting into decoys with my 12ga pump so many times it’s just another good day hunting. [Federal and state law limits shotgun capacity to three shells total for migratory bird hunting or maybe I’d occasionally kill a fourth duck or goose.]

There is no way in hell I would rely on a single shot anything for self defense, extractors or ejectors.

Simple a priori probability reveals why. For example, with a coin toss there is a 50/50 chance of tails coming up on one toss. But a 75% chance if at least one tails in two tosses. Assume in the middle of the night you are awaken from deep sleep by an intruder. If you keep the gun loaded is there a 50/50 chance the first shell isn’t a dud and you manage under the stress to hit the the intruder center of torso to ensure a stop? Maybe. But add that second barrel and your chances jump to 75%. Now use an 80% probability. 80% chance that the first round isn’t a dud and you manage to hit the intruder well enough to stop him, 20% chance of a dud or a miss/non stopping hit. With two rounds your chance for success has increased to 96%.

For the same reason, any double shotgun would have two triggers or at least the second barrel lock work would not be recoil activated, so a failure to fire for the first barrel doesn’t render the second barrel inoperable.

I’ve done a lot of dangerous game hunting with a double barrel sidelock rifle with ejectors. I chose that platform because of my then much greater familiarity with a SxS than a bolt action rifle. A sidelock shotgun or rifle has two completely independent trigger/lock/barrel set ups, so the left set up is independent of the right and vice versa. I never felt under gunned. But you could not pay me to hunt dangerous game with a single shot.

 

[WR Moore]

"A break-open single-shot for home defense? According to Clint, it's a formidable
platform, if you know what you're doing and train accordingly.": GUNS Magazine How To Run Shotguns for Home Defense - GUNS Magazine


Have a look how he are using shotguns för defence: Defensive Shotgun - YouTube

First off, while any shotgun can be a formidable defensive platform-once-it may not be the best selection for your situation, level of training and dedication. The "train accordingly" is probably THE major part of that. There's several maxims about training and one fact. The fact is, that a month without practice will degrade your skills about 20%. That can be cumulative. The maxims, established by experience, include "Amateurs’ practice until they do something right, professionals’ practice until they can't do it wrong." and "You can't do it until you can do it in the (pitch black) dark."

Clint also has a saying about "One is none, two is one". While it primarily refers to equipment failures, it can also apply to many other possibilities. It's one of the reasons one shoots an attacker until they no longer present a threat.

I suspect the video is for those who might not have any other option for whatever reason. He's also done classes on how the single action revolver is still a viable defensive tool. Doesn't mean either is the best solution to a given problem. Finally, he strongly suggests that one get training from a wide variety of sources and afterward select what works best for them.

Like many other things, the internet can be used to validate anyone's prejudices/choices. Might not be the best solution.

 

[Hello86]

Thanks everyone for the recent replies, very interesting and helpful.

I thought this thread asks the question of " Will an old .38 sp. revolver do for home defense". It's not about shotguns, auto rifles etc. So why the posts regarding all this other stuff ?

Yes you are right. That's what the thread is about, so shotguns and other things discussed in the last posts are outside the topic of the thread.

It maybe became a bit relevant and as a kind of "evolution" of the discussion whether 38 special is good for home defense, when there was other advice, for example complementing your 38 special revolver with a shotgun was advice and the like, so then it automatically slipped a little off-topic, with follow-up questions, off-topic, but still somewhat relevant to the topic or closely related, so to speak.

But anyway, the thread is about 38 special revolvers and home defense, so let's get back on topic.

I take responsibility for going off-topic with my follow-up questions regarding off-topics and apologize for that.

There was something else I wanted to ask about the topic, will probably get back to you guys with that.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I thought this thread asks the question of " Will an old .38 sp. revolver do for home defense". It's not about shotguns, auto rifles etc. So why the posts regarding all this other stuff ?

I referenced a 24" .357 lever rifle as an example that negates the expressed concerns of caliber "absolutes" of excessive noise, flash, and recoil which also pertains to a lesser degree with longer barreled and heavier handguns.


Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

 

[majick47]

Understand the thread wondered off the 38 special revolver but when discussing 12ga shotguns the S&W M-3000 police model deserves a respectful mention, many considered it the equal if not surpassing the Remington 870.

 

[AJ]

Understand the thread wondered off the 38 special revolver but when discussing 12ga shotguns the S&W M-3000 police model deserves a respectful mention, many considered it the equal if not surpassing the Remington 870.

Never saw a S&W M-3000 All I ever saw in the military and when working with police were M-870's and a few Winchester M1200's (these were junk, Winchester's that is!). Just remembered the Navy had Mossberg 500's and they changed our opinion of Mossberg's to the point a few bought them when they felt the need for a shotgun.

 

[walkin' trails]

Police didn't exactly flock in droves toward the .357 Magnum because the originals were expensive for the day, and the .38 Special soldiered on until the wunder-9s started taking over mid-late 80s. A .38 Special with modern self defense ammunition is still a respectable tool.

 

[majick47]

Much like the Colt M-16 with long standing military contracts Remington had a lock on sales to LE against the S&W M-3000 mfg by Howa/Japan, S&W a superior shotgun. Same with handguns S&W Model 10 more than adequate for police/security/civilians. After S&W discontinued the M-3000 Mossberg picked up the shotgun and sold it under their name for a few years.