Wadcutter Powder Question

[Steve in Vermont]

I've been loading .38 HBWC and DEWC for some time (all 148gr). I've been loading the HBWC with 2.7gr Bullseye or 2.9gr W231 & the DEWC with 3.0gr HP-38 with good results. I'm about to load some 148 gr SWC and had planned to use 3.0gr W231 or HP-38 but a friend suggested I increase the amount slightly due to the fact that the SWC will not be seated as deep, hence a difference in pressure. I don't believe this difference will affect the load at these low pressures but...........any thoughts?

 

[CookE]

Can I ask you what you are shooting with these rounds?.......CookE

 

[GyMac]

I agree with your friend. I think a load using a SWC of 148 grains or so would be better balanced with a slightly larger charge of Win 231/HP-38. Probably the same with BE.

 

[Black_Talon]

I agree with your friend, and with GyMac above. I'd increase the charge a bit to compensate for the increase in internal case volume with the less-deeply-seated 148gr SWC.

 

[Steve C]

a friend suggested I increase the amount slightly due to the fact that the SWC will not be seated as deep, hence a difference in pressure.

You are changing bullet design so you can not expect the same results with the same load, nor are your likely to get it.

Your friend is correct in that you should increase your load to get good results with a solid base bullet. His reasoning is a bit off.

The idea that reduced seating depth decreasing pressure in a large case like the .38 spl to any significant level is mostly internet myth.

Hollow base wad cutters are a bullet with particular characteristics the primary one is that the skirt expands providing good bore to bullet seal and positive contact with the rifling. Too much powder and the resulting pressure with an HBWC can force the thin skirt area of the bullet to grab tightly either in the case, cylinder or bore tearing it off or blowing the center out of the bullet either of which will leave an obstruction for the next round. The ability of the HBWC skirt to seal the bore does alleviate typical problems found with solid base bullets.

When you load a solid base bullet the ideal situation is to have everything that would cause the bullet to seal in the bore correctly line up. First is bullet size and cylinder throat size. Ideally the bullet is a snug fit through the throats. Second is the throat diameter compared to the barrels bore diameter. Ideally the throats should be slightly larger than the bore diameter. All this allows for the proper bullet seal in the bore. If the bullet doesn't seal properly then the gas propelling it down the barrel will leak past the base of the bullet melting the sides of the bullet and depositing lead in the barrel. If the bullet is not too hard and the pressure is high enough the base of the bullet will bump up enough to seal in the bore. Too hard a bullet or too little pressure will result in leading just as if the cylinder throats or bullet is too small.

If you use commercial manufactured lead bullets for .38 spl you will likely get better results with a softer bullet. If you have the option on bullet hardness like from MBC get the 12 BNH target bullets or buy Speer or Hornady swagged bullets for loads kept below 1,000 fps.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I charge 3.2gr-3.4gr W231/HP-38 under a 148gr DEWC and 4.0gr W231/HP-38 under a 158gr LSWC. Even with a 148gr LSWC you will need to increase the charge weight or risk a squib load.

You are increasing the case volume a lot by using a SWC bullet instead of a WC bullet seated flush. The pressures will be very different especially with lower end charges. I would use at least 3.5gr W231/HP-38 under that 148gr SWC bullet.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

The data I've been relying on comes from Winchester and using W231 with a 148 gr HBWC calls for 2.9 to 3.3 gr for 690 - 770fps and on the BBWC 3.0 to 3.4 for 690 - 760. I only use Bullseye on the HBWC. I've fired over a thousand rounds in the past month with consistent patterns. For the HB I use Hornady, for the DE and SWC I use Rim Rock Bullets. I'm shooting both 2 and 4 inch Smiths and would like to keep the loads light for my wife and some friends who are recoil sensitive. If increasing for the SWC how much are we talking about? .1 grain? .2? I appreciate the feedback.

 

[ISOM]

Wadcutter powder

I have used 2.7 grains of BULLSEYE very effectively.
If you go with Winchester 231 there are two things
to know:
HBWC--3.0 grains. Any faster and they will tumble.
DBWC--4.0 grains. They will not tumble and is a
very good load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm shooting both 2 and 4 inch Smiths and would like to keep the loads light for my wife and some friends who are recoil sensitive. If increasing for the SWC how much are we talking about? .1 grain? .2? I appreciate the feedback.

Like I said above, I would think a charge of 3.5gr is a good place to start. That's not a big increase by the numbers but will make a real difference in pressure and velocity to be sure the load is safe. If you do load them up with 3.5gr W231 please post the velocity numbers you get compared to the numbers you already posted. I'm interested to see if my recommendation is correct. (looking to keep the same velocity you already report)

 

[Bdouthet]

I tried Bullseye, Win 231 and Hp-38
Bullseye was a dirty powder blackened up my stainless revolver big time and accuracy was not very good in light target loads. Win 231 and HP-38 a lot cleaner powder but to get good accuracy, rounds had to be loaded up to a med target load.
What I found to be the best for light accurate target loads is Clays about 3 to 3.4grs and its cleaner powder then bullseye.

later

Bill

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I tried Bullseye, Win 231 and Hp-38
Bullseye was a dirty powder blackened up my stainless revolver big time and accuracy was not very good in light target loads. Win 231 and HP-38 a lot cleaner powder but to get good accuracy, rounds had to be loaded up to a med target load.
What I found to be the best for light accurate target loads is Clays about 3 to 3.4grs and its cleaner powder then bullseye.

later

Bill

I'm just curious as to why you would mention W231 and HP-38 separately considering they are both the same powder?

As for clays, yes it's much cleaner than Bullseye but I've found it to be a very fast powder and it can spike pressures when pushed up near it's upper limits. I loaded clays for 148gr DEWC and 158gr LSWC ammo for the .38 Special and both jacketed and lead bullets in the 45 Auto. The ammo shot fine but considering W231/HP-38 works just as well in those calibers I didn't see the need to have both powders in stock. Besides, I found it hard to get Clays to meter well with the small charge weights associated with 148gr DEWC target loads. I just couldn't get it to correctly meter 2.5gr charges.

 

[FloridaFlier]

Guys: I apologize in advance for going slightly off point, but I would appreciate some good info, and the posters on this string seem to have a grip on the subject.
I have been reloading for a few years, and build pretty good ammo, but have never tried wadcutters. I currently try to restrict my powder to W-231 because it is a good all around powder for the 3 calibers that I load; .38 special, 9mm & .45 ACP. One powder also conforms to the KISS principle.
I like the look of the 148 gr. Oregon Train DEWC with beveled base. I am planning to seat to the cannelure and crimp there, but would like to know a good W-231 starting and max load. That bullet is not mentioned in the Winchester web page. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts and, if possible, your source info. Thanks in advance.
Pete

 

[Az Rick]

I'll have to agree with ISOM, I use 4grs. of 231 or Hp-38, with a wadcutter I cast and it is a tack driver. Air cooled WW, 140gr. RCBS mould that drops at 143grs. Very accurate.

Best. Rick

 

[Jellybean]

I've been loading .38 HBWC and DEWC for some time (all 148gr). I've been loading the HBWC with 2.7gr Bullseye or 2.9gr W231 & the DEWC with 3.0gr HP-38 with good results. I'm about to load some 148 gr SWC and had planned to use 3.0gr W231 or HP-38 but a friend suggested I increase the amount slightly due to the fact that the SWC will not be seated as deep, hence a difference in pressure. I don't believe this difference will affect the load at these low pressures but...........any thoughts?

You are right, you're friend is mistaken. Reducing the seating depth will drop your pressures, but they will not be so low that it will cause a problem. Your accuracy may be the biggest loser here though. Wadcutters and Hollow Base Wadcutters are made to stabilize at slower velocities while weight-rearward bullet designs aren't. Hopefully they will be okay at closer ranges for the beginners but as the bullet slows at longer ranges accuracy will probably fall apart.

 

[gb70840]

I use 3.2 grains of HP-38/Win 231 for my NRA Conventional Pistol (AKA Bullseye) loads with Speer 148 grain HBWC or Speer 158 grain SWC. Both shoot 3" groups at 50 yards from a rest out of my model 14-2. Now if only I could shoot that well one hand unsupported. I love shooting this load even if I'm not that good! 8^)

GB.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I currently try to restrict my powder to W-231 because it is a good all around powder for the 3 calibers that I load; .38 special, 9mm & .45 ACP. One powder also conforms to the KISS principle.
I like the look of the 148 gr. Oregon Train DEWC with beveled base. I am planning to seat to the cannelure and crimp there, but would like to know a good W-231 starting and max load.
Pete

I and several others have already mentioned the charge weights for W231 in this thread. The information is already above. With a 148gr DEWC you can load anywhere between 3.0gr to 4.0gr W231 depending upon which source you check. I suggest starting between 3.2gr and 3.4gr and working from there if necessary.

 

[FloridaFlier]

OK. I will load 3.2 gr of 231 and be aware of the possibility of punching it up to 4.0 (although I am not now sure why I would ever want to). Thanks.
Pete

 

[tommy F]

I use 3.2 W231 with several 155-160gr cast bullets and get very good light loads. I believe 3-4gr is safe with most 140-160gr bullets. Load some and test with your guns. Chrono also if you looking for best load (least variation).

 

[flgolfer29]

I recently loaded Berry's 148 gr dewc with hp38. The first few rounds I used 3.0 gr and after the first shot the recoil was so light i thought the bullet may have lodged in the barrel. It turns out the round did fire and was also accurate. I have settled on 3.8 gr for normal target shooting (very accurate) and 3.3 gr for the wife and her s&w 442.