Harley question...

[66TAS]

Finally, I simply found 66TAS's remarks repugnant. By reading my few posts here he was able to deduce that I "like vanilla" and that I am "practical". Oh really?

LOL!
Then I made my point. And actually, I am basing that only on your original post in this thread! You may be chocolate in other areas...but I doubt it.
I have ridden them all. Sport bikes, twin thumpers, brit triples, Italian Desmo's, V twins of every make, cruisers galore....and most asian bikes are vanilla compared to HD's and Italian bikes. But thats just my opinion...which is what you asked for.

If you ride a Harley and it doesnt speak to your soul, then you will never get it. Personally, I dont care for Harleys twin cam motor. I love the EVO, but long for the sound of a shovel head.....actually, I kinda miss my shovel.

Harleys are loud, buzzy, and an awesome platform to build horsepower with, if you know how. They do everything you ask of them, but are not spectacular at any of them, yet I love them. But then, I aint vanilla.

 

[Enframe]

If no one has done it yet, I'll put it in gun terms.

Harley's are the 1911 of motorcycles.

ETA - This is not my original thought. I think it's been posted elsewhere before, maybe more than once. In my old age, I forget by who, and where. My apologies.

 

[mkk41]

Bravo 5-Shot!

OK mkk, now we're starting to get somewhere.

First the points we disagree on: I reject your assertion that I don't get the American infatuation with motor vehicles. I worked my way through high school dismantling 40'd and 50's v8 engines. I've raced off road motorcycles a bit (hare and hound woods races), SCCA road races and autocross. I've flown recreational aerobatics and ran snow mobiles through the High Cascades for years. I had a 65 GTO Tri power as a young man and have seat time in such exotics as a Porsche 930 and a Ferrari Testarossa (the mid engined one) and most of the lesser sporty cars. While I doubt I have your mechanical skills I've put in my time keeping a Bonneville running and have rebuilt 2 stroke moto X engines.

I contend that just because its old, it doesn't mean it's good. It just means its still around. Several years ago some of my buddies, who were overcome with nostalgia, obtained the dream rides of their youth. They came home with 60's vintage 409's, 421's and 389's. You can guess the names that go with the numbers. We all "oohed and aahed" for a while and drove them a few time times and then confessed that they were really awful by current standards. A Chevrolet 409 might cool, but there's any number of dull current crop cars that will run off and hide from it on a mountain road.

Now for the good part: My wife read your post and kept saying "you know, he's right" and indeed you are. If you consider Harleys a focal point of tuning, restoration, modification, history and socialization I actually get that. You are exactly right on about Japanese bikes. Like Peter Eagan, I consider them essentially "sealed units". A few years ago I decided to reset the TPI on my Yamaha FZ1. The instructions read like they came from Microsoft. "Raise tank, locate a certain connector, turn on key, disconnect connector, reconnect it, your tachometer is now a TPI indicator, adjust tach needle to 7000 by turning TPI adjustment screw, turn off key....." You get the drift. It was a lot more fun to grind 3 angle valve jobs in small block heads. Still, you have to admit. These Japanese bikes do run and ride great and the first scheduled valve check (and probably no adjustment will be needed) comes at about the same time that a 60's vintage Bonnie would be due for its second major overhaul.

So, yeah, I do get it. You and I are into bikes for different reasons, but now I understand why you like Harleys.

All the best,
Ed

Ah , I've always enjoyed reading Peter Egan back in the Cycle World days!

Now the 389 powered GTOs stir some mens souls , but I've never liked Pontiacs. I'd rather have a Buick GSX , or nailhead-motored boat-tail Riv.

Since you touched on my absolute favorite Chevrolet motor , the legandary 409 'W' motor , you may be interested in my own long term 4 wheel project. I have a 1963 409 motor and Borg Warner Super T-10 that I'm putting in a 1964 Corvette. The 'Vette was a drag car back in the 70s , and has been flared and tubbed and converted to a solid rear axle , currently a GM 12-bolt. I bought it without motor or trans. Far too gone for restoration , it's gonna be a street rod. Edelbrock is now making aluminum hi-performance heads for the old W motors. And the T-10 might get traded for a Doug Nash 5-speed.

Now I've got a loft full of other Chevy mouse and rat motors. And yes , I know they are all 'better' motors than the '09. But I think the combo of a 409 in a '64 Vette screams old school hot rod. I've seen tri-power 348s in 58s and 59 Vettes and dual quad 409s in 62s.

Even have a vanity plate in mind , '64 Wette!

And I too have much experience with working on older Japanese superbikes. I roadraced in WERA and AMA and prepped my own '78 and later '83 GS 750 Suzukis as well as a GSXR-750 LTD and Yamaha FZ-750. Worked for a dragbike shop and ran my own '83 Suzuki GS-1100ES , Honda CBX and Kawasaki GPZ 1100 with turbo.

But my Harleys are where my heart is. Since it first came out , I was one of the Evo-bashers. The Evo-motored bike , especially the Softail ushered in the Yuppie 'biker' era. But as my buddys say , since the Twin Cam came out and Evo is obsolete , I can finally own one. And I do love riding my '97 Police RoadKing!

BTW , look what parked next to me at this years antique meet!

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This is my five years old obsolete two-wheeled refrigerator.

ps. I enjoy the camaraderie among motorcycle riders of all tank emblems.



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[mkk41]

If no one has done it yet, I'll put it in gun terms.

Harley's are the 1911 of motorcycles.

ETA - This is not my original thought. I think it's been posted elsewhere before, maybe more than once. In my old age, I forget by who, and where. My apologies.

Actually , I'd have to say they were more like a S&W N-frame. The resemblance from vintage to current models is mainly superficial. More modern materials , manufacturing methods and features seperate them quite a bit.

Just like comparing an original triple lock , a US 1917 .45 and one of the new Model 25s. So similar , so different.

 

[5-Shot]

Well 66tas, you sure got me there. If the definition of vanilla is liking Japanese bikes then I'm guilty. This reminds me of a debate that raged through the sporty car press about 20 years ago. The Japs were just starting to produce some interesting cars and while the road test writers thought they were nice they always felt it necessary to add that while they were fine cars they lacked the "character" of their European counterparts. That, quite naturally, sent the pundits looking for a workable definition of "character" in this context. After months of debate they finally agreed on the perfect definition of character..."flaws".

So if not wanting to put up with Ducati's silly desmodromic valve system and stone age clutch earns me the badge of vanilla I'll bear it proudly. I admit a certain fondness for Guzzi's, but their "character" lies in their fragile infrastructure. I don't care to own the last Moto Guzzi imported into the US. Nearly bought a Tuono several years ago, but the factory was going through one of its periodic "closing its doors for good" episodes. By the way, the first two bikes I ever owned were Italian, which should, in itself have been enough to warn me off forever.

 

[mkk41]

This is my five years old obsolete two-wheeled refrigerator.

ps. I enjoy the camaraderie among motorcycle riders of all tank emblems.



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Ummm , you don't really play with that smart phone on the handlebars while riding , do ya?

 

[mkk41]

So if not wanting to put up with Ducati's silly desmodromic valve system and stone age clutch earns me the badge of vanilla I'll bear it proudly. I admit a certain fondness for Guzzi's, but their "character" lies in their fragile infrastructure. I don't care to own the last Moto Guzzi imported into the US. Nearly bought a Tuono several years ago, but the factory was going through one of its periodic "closing its doors for good" episodes. By the way, the first two bikes I ever owned were Italian, which should, in itself have been enough to warn me off forever.

Ahhh , I think you and I would get along just fine!

I LOVE the Ducatis Desmo valve system! As long as it's the old towershaft and spur gear driven , not them sissy Pantha belt driven cams. Please let me find an old '77 900SS I can afford!

I also like tuning Dell-Orto carbs!

And beating my head against the wall!

Ya know the old tune , if German engineers can design a machine with 500 parts , American engineers can do it with 300 , Russians with 200 and the Italians with 10,000!

I'd still take Marelli or Marconi electrics over Lucas or Miller. And we won't even touch British metallurgy!

 

[Enframe]

Actually , I'd have to say they were more like a S&W N-frame. The resemblance from vintage to current models is mainly superficial. More modern materials , manufacturing methods and features seperate them quite a bit.

Just like comparing an original triple lock , a US 1917 .45 and one of the new Model 25s. So similar , so different.

I was leaning that way, (an N-frame) myself, but it's the customization angle that smacks of a 1911. The ability to tweak it, hang all manner of shiny (or not) trash off it, and have it still thump along like they do.

ETA - An N-frame, OTOH, is best enjoyed in it's pristine state, as it's makers made it, and it's buyer bought it, IMO.

 

[5-Shot]

MKK,
When you get that Corvette done you'll want to take it to Bowling Green (although it didn't come from there) to the annual Corvette Homecoming. I can hook you up with one of my best friends in the world who owns and operates the show.

Like you, I'm a big Eagan fan and was fortunate enough to meet him briefly a couple of years ago at the vintage races and swap meet at Barber Motorsports Park near Birmingham. We were staying at the same hotel.

By the way, since you like old bikes, if you have not been to the Barber museum...go. They must have a thousand bikes. It's like the Grand Canyon, you can look but it's so overwhelming you just can't quite take it in.

Ed

 

[mkk41]

I was leaning that way, (an N-frame) myself, but it's the customization angle that smacks of a 1911. The ability to tweak it, hang all manner of shiny (or not) trash off it, and have it still thump along like they do.

ETA - An N-frame, OTOH, is best enjoyed in it's pristine state, as it's makers made it, and it's buyer bought it, IMO.

Back in the day , many N-frames were highly customized by hunters and cops. Pre-27s got sights , grips , ribs by gunsmiths of the day and even registered mags were considered factory customs , ordered to customers specifications.

 

[Marshwheeling]

Harley's are the 1911 of motorcycles.

That's an insult to the 1911, which is a much better gun than a Harley is a motorcycle. I don't know what gun the Harley compares to, but it's not the 1911, not S&W, not Ruger. Think American-made, expensive, flashy, with mediocre performance and dubious reliability.

Smith357 was not exaggerating when he said his loaded airhead would run and hide from a Harley. Don't worry about him crashing, he won't even have to ride hard to do it. Only about three times in my life have I seen a Harley ridden well enough to keep up with me, an average rider, on a twisty road, a drum-braked 750 airhead, at an average brisk touring pace, no hard braking, no peg dragging, no pinned throttles, just a relaxed 7/10ths ride. An airhead BMW is not a particularly fast bike in modern terms, but its all-around performance is miles ahead of any Harley, particularly in the hands of someone who has put 220k on it. A very good, experienced rider on a Harley might be able to keep an airhead in sight, but he will have to work very, very hard to do it.

This is not intended as a putdown of Harleys, it is simply that going slow is what they do best. Their natural pace is slower. They can be ridden briskly, but they seem out of their element. If a sport bike rider passes a Harley, he isn't crazy, he is just on a bike that is at home at higher speeds than the Harley. The same is true of a middle-aged European twin, or a 650cc single-cylinder dual sport bike. They are all comfortable and relaxed at a pace that most Harley riders cannot maintain safely or comfortably.

 

[feralmerril]

For me it was harley`s, GMC truck`s, tail draggers, copenhagen, ketchup, tabasco, biscuts & gravy, smith`s, colts and winchesters. Dont give me no plastic saddle, I wanna feel that leather when I ride.

 

[mkk41]

No , I think the comparison is valid. They're both excellent , but somewhat antiquated designs that have been kept alive with subtle upgrades. And while a mechanic or gunsmith that knows what he's doing can make them sing , far too many of both have been ruined by hacks.

1911= most customized gun with a huge variety aftermarket of parts available.

Harley = most customized motorcycle with a huge variety of aftermarket parts available.

And IIRC , the first Harley V-twin was made in , 1911!

But the V-twin motor of today has been more refined.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Ummm , you don't really play with that smart phone on the handlebars while riding , do ya?

Oh yeah.. that's my Garmin! Some of us appliance riders have advanced beyond magnetic tank bag maps.

I wired it into the battery with a dual cig lighter/charger and toggle switch under the left plastic side cover.

My wife and I like taking day and weekend trips. I toss on the windshield and stuff and we're ready to go. Garmin comes in handy.



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[Smith357]

Harley's are the 1911 of motorcycles.

I always thought they were more the the Grateful Dead of motorcycles.

The dead is a good band with some decent songs, but the Dead Heads who followed them around and proclaim Jerry Garcia a God were rather annoying. Harleys are good open road bikes, it's the fanboyz and 1% wannabes that turn me off.

Oh yeah.. that's my Garmin! Some of us appliance riders have advanced beyond magnetic tank bag maps.

That ruins the joys of getting lost , one of my favorite styles of riding is just dead reckoning, while trying to stay on roads with no painted lines. It's the journey not the destination.

 

[mkk41]

I always thought they were more the the Grateful Dead of motorcycles.

The dead is a good band with some decent songs, but the Dead Heads who followed them around and proclaim Jerry Garcia a God were rather annoying. Harleys are good open road bikes, it's the fanboyz and 1% wannabes that turn me off.



That ruins the joys of getting lost , one of my favorite styles of riding is just dead reckoning, while trying to stay on roads with no painted lines. It's the journey not the destination.

Gotta agree on both points. The later line up (Brent years) of the Grateful Dead could be one of the greatest band ever. And I didn't discover how good it was till I met some Deadheads who were actually quite intelligent and functional. But going to a show was probably one of the biggest disappointments of my life. While I'm not the most materialistic person I know , I do like a few of the good things in life , like money in my pocket , good food , a nice home and BATHING at least once and preferably twice a day!

How do ya know when Deadheads have been to your house?
They're still there!

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

That ruins the joys of getting lost , one of my favorite styles of riding is just dead reckoning, while trying to stay on roads with no painted lines. It's the journey not the destination.

Absolutely!

 

[27145]

I own 2 Springer's, both foot clutched, one jockey and one tank shifted. The last 5 years I worked at an HD dealership, wrenching on them. After I retired from the PD I toured cross Country on my Harley's, then settled into working at the dealership.
I won't own anything other than a Harley. I also won't own anything other than S&W and Colt and a Ruger I have. I like American products. I seek out American products no matter what I am shopping for. I like to keep Americans employed.

I like that Harley's are all metal. I love the paint. Anyone who bashes Harley's does so to justify their Jap purchases. Harley's are too expensive, etc, etc. BS, the Jap bikes are way up in price, almost comparable to HD. The Goldwing surpassed HD prices, and yet they still have frame cracks year after year. Only with Jap bikes, you get plastic chrome covers.

You people love your Jap bikes, but usually they are "Hardley's" just a cheap knock off at a premium price.

I do not like where Harley is headed. The RUBS started going on a Harley craze, throwing money around for a garage queen. Yet it was all flash. The RUBs would remortgage their house and buy a loaded Harley with all the tacky acc's they could buy. It wasn't their money, it was all borrowed. I am sure a lot of rubs have since had their houses foreclosed and their bikes repo'd. They were evil little people who thought they were better than anyone else. They flaunted "their money" and treated people like garbage.

Harley's generally look very similar to ones made 50 years ago. They are a timeless design. You can rebuild them forever. They are like S&W and Colt, beautiful quality works of art.

I do not like seeing "Made in Japan" and other Countries (I hate China) on HD parts. Unfortunately we as a people are to blame. Most chrome parts are made outside the US, because the EPA is shutting down chroming facilities, factories cant dye leather here, we are losing our industrial factories, so HD is finding parts over sea's.
Harley also has plenty of fault. They shut down viable Mom and Pop dealerships and only stand by their "Boutique" dealerships. The "Boutique" owners are amoral people. They pay their staff at poverty wages and rape every customer who walks into the place.

I do not wear the "Harley Costume". I wear plain button down shirts to cover my ccw. I buy boots made in the USA, same with my jeans and if I wear a leather jacket, it is a Foxcreek jacket made in Virginia.

Harley's are very simple to work on, but they are becoming more and more difficult to work on. For those who feel the need to get ABS, you will take it to the dealership if you need any work other than a pad change or brake line. Now with sensors, unless you are willing to throw parts at it, you will be at a dealer, same with fuel injection. In todays society, few people know how to wrench anyway, even if they had a Pan Shovel or Evo, they would bring it to the dealer.

Harley has been making too many design changes in the last few years. It used to be a parts book covered from the 40's until the early 80's, now every year it needs a parts book. This is what screwed up Jap bikes and HD is headed down the same road. Nonsensical changed like going from a 150 to a 200 tire. It is hard for a dealer to stock anything because their are so many different parts.

No matter what bike you own, if you like it, ride it and enjoy it.

 

[66TAS]

Well 66tas, you sure got me there. If the definition of vanilla is liking Japanese bikes then I'm guilty. This reminds me of a debate that raged through the sporty car press about 20 years ago. The Japs were just starting to produce some interesting cars and while the road test writers thought they were nice they always felt it necessary to add that while they were fine cars they lacked the "character" of their European counterparts. That, quite naturally, sent the pundits looking for a workable definition of "character" in this context. After months of debate they finally agreed on the perfect definition of character..."flaws".

So if not wanting to put up with Ducati's silly desmodromic valve system and stone age clutch earns me the badge of vanilla I'll bear it proudly. I admit a certain fondness for Guzzi's, but their "character" lies in their fragile infrastructure. I don't care to own the last Moto Guzzi imported into the US. Nearly bought a Tuono several years ago, but the factory was going through one of its periodic "closing its doors for good" episodes. By the way, the first two bikes I ever owned were Italian, which should, in itself have been enough to warn me off forever.

Ahhh yes, flavor is not without its drawbacks. I like all things 2 wheels as I started riding a UJM and have owned several. Lets see who knows what UJM stands for.

BTW, I didnt say there was anything WRONG with vanilla, or liking vanilla, I like it sometimes myself, but its still vanilla. Nothing wrong with it, but it aint fudge ripple. LOL