+P Wadcutter

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

It is worth remembering that the idea of shooting wadcutters for defensive loads is nothing new. Years ago Peters marketed a .38 special Service Wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet at 850 fps. I have seen pictures of boxes and ammo. McGivern makes a very brief reference to them in his book.

I also have scans of an old S&W add for the 2" M&P in .38 spl from the 20s or 30s that discussed the use of the Mid Range Wadcutter as an option when you wanted a lighter load because "the sharp shouldered design of this wad cutter makes it an extraordinarily effective man-stopper at short ranges" and "the design of the bullet acts to reduce ... the possibility of the bullet ricocheting and injuring bystanders".

In 25+ years of collecting 38Spl rounds I have never seen nor documented the existance of a 158gr WC load by any major manufacturer. I would certainly be interested in any proof that you have showing the existance of a Peters brand 158WC load.

Also, guns/ammo ads from the 20s and 30s really don't mean much. Back in those days the 38S&W/38Colt NP and the 32Long were still in service with LEAs, and the .32 continued even into the 60s as "Police Women's" caliber. Guns/ammo manufacturers advertised all kinds of claims in order to sell their products. Stating that the 38Spl wadcutter is/was an effective alternate to the standard LRN or SWC is no different.

 

[alwslate]

Well CTG COLLECTOR since you mention proof I assume you can show
proof that a speeded up hard cast WC is less effective than lighter weight HPs fired from 1 7/8" barreled J frames. Lighter weight JHPs
have failed to expand, penetrate or both in the real world. How
can any HP that fails to expand be more effective than a full caliber
flat face bullet?

 

[David Sinko]

I have an RCBS cast bullet manual that shows loading data for the 148 gr. WC loaded to about 1200 FPS in .357 Magnum brass. I have about 70 bullets that somebody had cast very hard and lubed with Alox so I decided to see how these would work at high velocity. I loaded right up to the maximum charge weight and the bullets shot right to the sights at 25 yards in my Model 627 with 4" barrel. At 1200 FPS, I'd be surprised if this bullet did anything but drill straight through an assailant at any angle.

The problem with the .38 Special WC loadings is they lack velocity. The vast majority of factory loaded .38 Special lacks velocity as a matter of tradition so I could understand why nobody would want to take chances with a higher velocity WC load.

Dave Sinko

 

[Badkarma 1]

Defensive Wadcutters

I do remember seeing a box of German made .38 Spl. wadcutters that were actually a very hollow wadcutter load (112grs. IIRC) and loaded too like 1200fps! I think it might have been GECO. But this was like 20 years ago and they were a rareity over here.
But if you look at a little history, you'll remember the old British "Manstopper" load of the late 1800, early 1900 century. They featured a wadcutter shaped projectile with a huge hollow cavity and were mostly loaded in the old .455 Webley, although they might have done the same for the .38 S&W. But I haven't found any info on that.
Wadcutters have a tendency to tumble in flesh due to their design. I have used them from time to time. Dale

 

[revolvergeek]

In 25+ years of collecting 38Spl rounds I have never seen nor documented the existance of a 158gr WC load by any major manufacturer. I would certainly be interested in any proof that you have showing the existance of a Peters brand 158WC load.

I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.

 

[Pisgah]

>If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?

There you go.

 

[vytoland]

the 148gr DEWC @ 790 - 820 fps will work just fine in a snub nose for SD.

 

[Erich]

If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?

Because they have to market magic-bean/magic-pixie-dust stuff that only they manufacture. I mean, to read the press on this new stuff, you'd be shocked to learn that anyone ever even died in the Civil War.

To be honest, the guy who home-rolls a defensive WC load is probably going to be a more deadly shot with it than the fella who buys the a 20-round box of the latest RemFedChesterBonBore TAPDXTALON'Ball round that got written up in ShootingAmmoBlast. Because he'll have shot a hell of a lot more of it through his gun, and he'll have tailored his load to do what he needs from his gun.

Don't get me wrong, I like magic beans as much as the next guy, but you don't need a magic bean . . . or pixie dust. If people spent half the time actually practicing and studying shot-placement with Gray's Anatomy that they do arguing over pixie-dust bullets and tastes-great/less-filling caliber issues, folks would be a lot better off.

Now let me get back to worrying over what I should carry in my new SIG P220 Compact Elite SAO - the Hornady TAP 200-gr +P rounds that do 950 fps from the gun or the Winchester Ranger RA45TP 230-gr +Ps that do 900 fps from it. All you boys have a great weekend and a wonderful Father's Day!

 

[cjw3]

I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.**

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.

**Page 439 has a photograph of several .38 Special cartridges and bullets. On page 440, the cartridge labeled "26" on page 439 is described as "...Full cartridge view of Peters 158-grain full load wad cutter bullet cartridge." (A sectioned cartridge is #25 in the photo.) Other .38 Special cartridges in the photo are designated as "mid-range", so McGivern was definitely making a distinction between the two.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.

I think we have a miscommunication here.

In your post that I quoted you mentioned a 158 grain WC You may have mistyped and ment 148 and not 158. I have dozens of photos of different factory loads in 148gr WC, but have never heard of nor seen any factory 158 grain WC ammo before.

 

[cjw3]

I think we have a miscommunication here.

In your post that I quoted you mentioned a 158 grain WC You may have mistyped and ment 148 and not 158. I have dozens of photos of different factory loads in 148gr WC, but have never heard of nor seen any factory 158 grain WC ammo before.

CTG, check post #29. I recalled the same photo in Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting that Revolvergeek had seen, so I looked it up in my copy. There must not have been much demand for a WC load of that weight/velocity.

 

[photoman]

Because they have to market magic-bean/magic-pixie-dust stuff that only they manufacture. I mean, to read the press on this new stuff, you'd be shocked to learn that anyone ever even died in the Civil War.

To be honest, the guy who home-rolls a defensive WC load is probably going to be a more deadly shot with it than the fella who buys the a 20-round box of the latest RemFedChesterBonBore TAPDXTALON'Ball round that got written up in ShootingAmmoBlast. Because he'll have shot a hell of a lot more of it through his gun, and he'll have tailored his load to do what he needs from his gun.

Don't get me wrong, I like magic beans as much as the next guy, but you don't need a magic bean . . . or pixie dust. If people spent half the time actually practicing and studying shot-placement with Gray's Anatomy that they do arguing over pixie-dust bullets and tastes-great/less-filling caliber issues, folks would be a lot better off.

Now let me get back to worrying over what I should carry in my new SIG P220 Compact Elite SAO - the Hornady TAP 200-gr +P rounds that do 950 fps from the gun or the Winchester Ranger RA45TP 230-gr +Ps that do 900 fps from it. All you boys have a great weekend and a wonderful Father's Day!

Come on Erich... Tell us how you REALLY feel about wadcutters.

 

[revolvergeek]

I was just reading my copy of H.M. Stebbins "Pistols a modern encyclopedia" from 1961. On page 222 he is discussing the .38 spl, and he states that the "old full charge wadcutter sending a 148-grain spool of lead at 870fps" was discontinued because it was considered dangerous in old, worn out guns that were not properly in time due to lead shaving. He seems to approve of the idea in general though, stating that the wadcutter bullet "is shaped to kill... to stop a man".

I love digging through all the old books!

 

[Pigirondan]

I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.

I do the same thing with 5.0 grains Unique and 4.0 grains of Bullseye using Hunter's Supply 148 grain DEWC. YMMV

Blue Bunny was making some smoking hot 148 grain wadcutter loads, then stopped.