Open Carry

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Aren't you fans of OC making the assertions about how it reduces crime? Again, where's the proof?

Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

A blog, but still a testimonial:

Packing in NOVA: Open Carry Deters Bank Robbery

How many happen that you never hear about? Who knows? It isn't like there is a forum for tweakers and other scumbags to go to and complain about their robbery plans getting hosed because someone was in the store while OC'ng.

bob
 
I don't carry a gun to deter crime or even having someone take my lunch. I carry to protect my life or the life of another innocent victim.
 
Aren't you fans of OC making the assertions about how it reduces crime? Again, where's the proof?

If I'm a "bad guy", the first one I'm shooting is the one OC'ing. Why wouldn't I? Got eyes in the back of your head?

Why wouldn't you first take out the one who is obviously armed? I know we talk about dumb crooks but I doubt that many of them are also blind. Have you ever heard of an armed robbery or a mass shooting carried out by a guy carrying a white cane and wearing dark glasses?

If you did it was just a disguise :)
 
Aren't you fans of OC making the assertions about how it reduces crime? Again, where's the proof?

I never made that assertion. But now that you ask, there are documented cases of OC doing just that. In addition, interviews with convicted criminals back the assertion that criminals generally avoid citizens that they know to be armed. And why wouldn't they? There are so many soft targets out there that the risks of attacking a known armed citizen are far greater than any gains.

Now I ask you again to back up your claims. You made them. The onus is on you to either prove them, or admit that no such proof exists.

If I'm a "bad guy", the first one I'm shooting is the one OC'ing. Why wouldn't I? Got eyes in the back of your head?

But you see, that is the difference between you and a "bad guy". A "bad guy" is assessing his risk vs. his gain. "Bad guys" notoriously victimize the weakest, softest target. They prey on the elderly, the weak and timid, and the unaware. Given a choice between trying to rob the confident looking guy with the openly carried gun, or the timid looking women who's so busy talking on her cell phone that she almost stepped out in front of a bus at the last intersection, they'll choose the women almost every time. Unlike you, "bad guys" aren't going around trying to prove that their opinion of open carry is right, and everyone else is wrong.
 
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I thought we were talking about OC, now you're introducing ALL carry to prove OC reduces crime. Nice try.

No, I am saying that carry of ANY KIND has generally preceded a reduction in violent crimes in the states that implemented such lawful carry. I don't know of any study that has ever attempted to compare the crime deterrence effect of openly carried firearms versus the crime deterrent effect of concealed firearms.
 
Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

A blog, but still a testimonial:

Packing in NOVA: Open Carry Deters Bank Robbery

How many happen that you never hear about? Who knows? It isn't like there is a forum for tweakers and other scumbags to go to and complain about their robbery plans getting hosed because someone was in the store while OC'ng.

bob

So we have two cases where OC was a deterrence. Maybe more? Maybe.

My question is........ Is it a fair comparison?

Is it a logical reason to OC? Not in my mind.

But I'm so against OC that I see no logical reasons at all to do so.

IMHO, a gun should not be carried as a deterrence. My sitational awareness, attitude, and the way I carry myself should be enough of a deterrent. If it isn't then I will act accordingly on my terms and in a way so that the advantage is mine.

When I see someone OC I am not threatened or deterred in any way. Actually it amuses me.

Remember "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick?

Concealed carry is just that. Open carry is simply a big stick.
 
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No, I am saying that carry of ANY KIND has generally preceded a reduction in violent crimes in the states that implemented such lawful carry. I don't know of any study that has ever attempted to compare the crime deterrence effect of openly carried firearms versus the crime deterrent effect of concealed firearms.

It would be impossible to compare the two. Since concealed carry means nobody else knows. ;)
 
Open carry or concealed carry is not going to be a factor where stats can be compiled.

Maybe OC will not deter crime. Maybe CC does not deter crime. Either way it cannot be proven.

What can be proven would not be allowed to be posted here since it would be political. New Orleans, Houston, Chicago, NYC, LA or any of the other major cities will have their crime rates highest in the government funded, low income, welfare areas where Democratic control has given people so much for so long that the areas have became "Give me or I will take it" subdivisions. Criminals will watch for the postman in low income, government supported areas on the days the checks go out so they can take them from the mailboxes. Since the, mostly male, population of those areas do not work, they sit around drinking and playing cards, dominoes or such. They get to talking and arguments begin. Weapons are produced and people are killed. Drug dealers are common in these areas because drug use is more common among those that do not work.

FWIW: Louisiana recently introduced legislation that would have required drug testing for those on welfare, medicaid or other government funded programs. It was voted down by the Democrats since they buy their votes by offering giveaway programs and people vote their pocketbooks.

As to open carry, most on this site are honest, productive citizens but even the criminal element does not like citizens with guns. Has anyone else on here ever heard that polls taken in prisons show the thing that worries criminals most is armed people? If you are carrying openly, the criminals will not mess with you in most instances. If you are carrying concealed, you are more of a target because they do not know you are armed, they have the element of suprise on you and they already have their weapon out while you have to dig for yours.

Thus far, only one case has been documented where a civilian carrying openly had his gun taken. It was later learned that he was not a gun person and began wearing the gun due to his being robbed previously. Add to that, he ended up giving the assailant his gun. Try searching for instances of how many people have been disarmed by criminals when they were carrying concealed.

I do not care how one carries. I do care about how many guns they carry or how much ammo they carry but that is more of a personal peave of mine. I know I carry more than anyone on this board and walk into neighborhoods that most here would not want to drive through. I am on the streets from 10-14 hrs per day, seven days a week and always armed. I got in last night about 7pm and was called back out to a scene at 1am, back home at 3am and now getting ready to go to a meeting at 8am so I can be at an impound yard by 9am. Always armed. Walking in my yard, going out to eat, I am armed and not once has someone tried to take my sidearm. Had a few try to buy it but never take it.

Carry in what manner you want. Yet I maintain the instance of crime is deterred by open display of a gun. Would crime stats say how many robberies did not occur because a robber did not see a gun? NO. Will stats say how many times a person openly carrying stopped a robbery in progress? NO. But then concealed carry will not show up in the stats either.

What I will assure you is that if one sees a person openly carrying in areas where it is legal, they are not street punk thugs. In almost 40 yrs of working, I have yet to encounter a member of the cirminal element carrying openly. They ALWAYS carry concealed. At least those in favor of concealed carry has something in common with the criminal element.
 
Maybe OC will not deter crime. Maybe CC does not deter crime. Either way it cannot be proven.
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Yet I maintain the instance of crime is deterred by open display of a gun.

Yes, it cannot be proven either way.

I'm confused, why do you then insist it's a deterrent?
 
Yes, it cannot be proven either way.

I'm confused, why do you then insist it's a deterrent?

Mike, many things are deterrents in life.

Let me ask you, would you walk into a place with the intention of committing a crime where it is assured people are armed. Are you aware most mass shootings take place where people are not armed?

It is always a calculated risk to rob any place but criminals take the risk as being acceptable when the odds are on their side. If they know for a fact that an armed good guy or guys are present, I assure you they will not rob that place. Their risk of injury or arrest becomes too high.

Also there is an old saying about not messing with an old man with only one gun because he will know how to use it. A person that carries openly will usually know how to use his gun well. I do not practice just for qualifying. I practice using many guns to the tune of about 10,000+ rounds each yr with semis, revolvers and shotguns. I can hit and have done so, during timed events that simulate stress, a family size bar of soap at 30 feet.

The issue in this thread is not so much as to which way to carry but trying to justify the way one does carry. It matters not how one carries but which is best for that individual and what the law allows. Your part of the country may not allow open carry and you find it foreign to think of someone carrying openly. My area had open carry for 100+ years before permits were even considered and people are accustomed to not only seeing it done but doing it themselves. The police officers know it is legal and there is no hassle. I can compare it to our trip to France several years ago. Men will openly grope strange women (even the ugly ones) as they are in public. Nothing is thought of it there. The beaches are full of people not wearing clothes and nobody pays attention. Either of those actions in the US would be cause for arrest. It is what one is raised with.

The same can be said for firearm ownership. The percentage of gun owners will be higher in Louisiana than in NY. We grew up with them, we have more places to shoot and we hunt more than in NY. If you searched 20 cars at random here, you would likely find 18 with firearms inside. In NY, the rate would likely be much lower.
 
I hate to admit this but lately when I read an account of someone open carrying being given a hard time by a LEO I’m a little suspicious of the purpose for the stop in the first place. Have gang bangers and other criminals started open carrying in holsters? Not around here at least. So the LEO knows that the person he’s stopping is probably NOT a criminal because someone with evil intent likely does not want to draw attention to themselves by open carrying. I’m glad this group seems to be a small percentage of the LEO community in most States but it has been putting everyone in a suspicious light.
 
I not alarmed at the sight of a tool on someone's belt...;)


I'm still a little surprised when I see someone open carrying, but I don’t ever recall being alarmed. I’ve never had anyone make a comment to me the times I’ve open carried. Although I’ve gotten a few odd looks from people driving by in cars while we were walking the dogs and I was OC. Of course those looks were most likely people wondering why such an attractive woman was out walking dogs with a grizzled old goat like me.
 
BTW, since my temporary exodus from the Lone Star State, I've saw lots of folks just like you and I carrying holstered sidearm going about their everyday business in the Bluegrass.

I not alarmed at the sight of a tool on someone's belt...;)

My point exactly. Nobody pays it any attention where it is a common legal sight. It also allows people to get used to guns that may not have otherwise been exposed to them.

I know a whole lot of people, both good and bad. I cannot think of a single home I know of where there is not a gun in the home, even those with felons living there, people still have their guns.

Using one of the law offices I have to go in regularly, located in a nice neighborhood, with wrought iron fence around the place, as an example. There are now 11 secretaries employed there. Over half of them have concealed permits. The head attorney pays for the permit of any employee that wants one, including training. Put that same office and same employees in any one of a dozen other states and it would be unusual if any lady had a permit or attorney either. There could also be a sign on the door forbidding weapons.

It all depends on where one is at the time as to OC or CC or if anyone owns a gun.
 
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I still don't understand why people think CC gives them any 'element of surprise'. You are on defense. The bad guy is on offense. Defense never has the element of surprise. If an armed bad guy sticks you up, drawing your CC is going to get you shot. OC will at least give him a reason to choose someone else.

Thats one reason im a promoter of other training coupled with shooting. basic self defense and weapon fighting tactics are essential in person to person combat. when you can use your body efficiently you have your gun which will double as a blunt object and 5 other weapons, hands, feet, head, and even more depending your level of training. the BG tends to try to intimidated you with a gun and will get close to your face maybe even put a gun to your head. with adequate technique and skill that man is easily immobilized and shot with his own gun or yours. At longer distances running is a good option, as we all know shooting at a moving target is not such an easy task specially for a BG who probably doesnt hit the range much. While you run in unpredictable directions you draw and tactically shoot back. personally I dont ever see a gun fight that would be "a draw at high noon" type thing. as soon as i see that gun i will be out of the spot I was in. If im cornered I just gotta draw, shoot, and hit faster than the BG can. As far as defense not being a surprise. If you react according to the situation in a tactical manor when the bad guy was expecting a wallet, phone, and tears, he will be lost for at least 3 seconds trying to figure out what happened, plenty of time IMO. Just be aware of your surroundings and the people around you. And if all goes wrong and you get shot well at least you had a chance to react, as apposed to getting shot in the back by a bg who saw your gun and liked it. Again i dont wanna side with cc or oc, i think there is a time and place for each one and all bad guys are different, some BG's will be scared others will feel threatened some will wanna shoot you for your piece. Just wanted to put other training out there as well. IMO its really important and your post opened a great door to it. :D
 
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I still don't understand why people think CC gives them any 'element of surprise'. You are on defense. The bad guy is on offense. Defense never has the element of surprise. If an armed bad guy sticks you up, drawing your CC is going to get you shot. OC will at least give him a reason to choose someone else.

You are quite correct in that action always beats reaction. However, CC is not always defensive; it can be an offensive weapon in many circumstances. If a goblin's attention is distracted even for a moment to another person or event, your draw from concealment can be a surprise and your action will beat his reaction. A goblin may be assaulting another person, such as a stickup at a stop 'n rob. You may be close by within shooting range, and ideally situated to draw and seal the deal before he can react. There is NO surprise with open carry unless it's too dark for your opponent to see clearly.

John
 
Using one of the law offices I have to go in regularly, located in a nice neighborhood, with wrought iron fence around the place, as an example. There are now 11 secretaries employed there. Over half of them have concealed permits.

That's a "nice" neighborhood? :eek: What's the % in a "not so nice" neighborhood? :D
 
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