Interesting discussion of Model 12's. Thought you might enjoy some poor photos of an old warhorse. Not much finish left but sound mechanically.
Winchester Model 12
- Thread starter rchall
- Start date
wraco
Member
Wow! . . now that's a great example of the first week, of the first year M12. . I'm surprised Dave Riffle hasn't tried to obtain that one from you as it would sure fit in nice with his three first year guns, s/n . . 1, 40 & 44 on page 6, 8 & 9 of his book, "The Greatest Hammerless Repeating Shotgun Ever Built" . . "The Model 12 - 1912 to 1964".
For anyone has interest; there's a 3 digit, s/n 369, factory 2 barrel set, M12 for sale in Tucson AZ. The seller has quite a price tag on it but negotiating is half the fun. If anyone is interested, send me a pm, and I'll give you the contact.
Rod
For anyone has interest; there's a 3 digit, s/n 369, factory 2 barrel set, M12 for sale in Tucson AZ. The seller has quite a price tag on it but negotiating is half the fun. If anyone is interested, send me a pm, and I'll give you the contact.
Rod
Funny thing about Model 12's...young and old alike, everyones an expert, even the guys that have only ever shot one or two. I remember when I bought the very first one I ever had, $75.00 and I still have it. It would blow itself open no matter how tight or hard you tried to hold the forend forward. I posted the question online whether or not it was supposed to do this and got 26 replies. 13 said "nope, dont think so cause mine dont do that." and 13 said "yeah, that was what was so special about the Model 12 and what made it so fast to shoot." All 26 replies also went on to tell in detail how "you can hold the trigger in and pump the gun and it will fire when the bolt closes!!" They got that one 100% correct. I got the answer from AGI, the gunsmith named Roy Dunlap did a DVD on the Model 12 and addressed this exact issue. It's a good DVD for anyone looking to buy a Model 12 as he goes over all the things to check for in a used gun. He has a bad lisp so it's kinda like watching Sylvester the cat talk about guns. I have only ever bought {and restored} Model 12's, they are definately my favorite shotgun, never have sold one. Two interesting facts about the Model 12 that all these experts never relay...it was the first sucessful repeating shotgun made and every part was machined from solid steel billet up until 64 and then many were assembled after that with left over parts. All that said, get over it or not the 870 is still around and not only is the Model 12 long gone but so is the company that made it.
Last edited:
Some good imformation you have provided. In 25 years of collecting and studying model 12's this is the first time I ever heard of a model 12 "blowing open". Doesnt mean it doesnt happen simply because I never heard of it. What puzzles me is how a trap gun can be shot hundreds of thousands of rounds with no problems yet a field gun can be worn out. A typical trap gun is shot more in one season than a heavily used field gun is shot in 25 seasons. Got to get one of those DVD's and see what I have been missing.
wraco
Member
The Model 12 is famous for a lot of things, but the bolt blow'n open after firing isn't one of them. I've read two of Roy Dunlaps books and don't recall reading about that. Also have read both Madis' and Riffle's Model 12 books, and again, no mention of bolts blowing open.
But, if one or both of the action slide lock springs are broken, a Model 12 can become difficult to lock the action. I had one of my trap guns break one of the springs and I had to turn the gun upside down for it to lock-up. It kept on shoot'n and didn't blow open.
The Model 12 has a safety feature that prevents the bolt from firing if it's not in full battery. If a gun is neglected and abused to the point where it has extreme bolt droop, the gun will not fire. The firing pin retractor is for this purpose. When the action is closed and the bolt is locked up into the lock up notch it presses the firing pin retractor down into the top of the bolt and allows the firing pin to drop.
As Robert said, holding the forearm forward releases the action so the gun will open when the action slide lock is pressed upward. The recoil from firing a shot does the same thing as holding the forearm forward and holding up on the slide lock release, so holding the forearm forward when shooting allows the action to open even easier. Don't confuse this with the bolt blowing open.
The Japanese made Model 12's, do not slam fire like the real ones do.
The 1897 Winchester shares quite a few of these features as well. Release the hammer and move the forearm forward and you'll hear a click, the action will now open.
You'll notice the patent dates on the right rear of the barrel, on pre-1941 Model 12's, share patent dates with the 1897 and the 1893 Winchester pump shotgun.
Here's a photo of one of my 1897's. It's a factory two barrel set from 1901.
You can see where T.C. Johnson got the front half of his Model 1912. They already had it with the 1897 takedown models.
Regards:
Rod
But, if one or both of the action slide lock springs are broken, a Model 12 can become difficult to lock the action. I had one of my trap guns break one of the springs and I had to turn the gun upside down for it to lock-up. It kept on shoot'n and didn't blow open.
The Model 12 has a safety feature that prevents the bolt from firing if it's not in full battery. If a gun is neglected and abused to the point where it has extreme bolt droop, the gun will not fire. The firing pin retractor is for this purpose. When the action is closed and the bolt is locked up into the lock up notch it presses the firing pin retractor down into the top of the bolt and allows the firing pin to drop.
As Robert said, holding the forearm forward releases the action so the gun will open when the action slide lock is pressed upward. The recoil from firing a shot does the same thing as holding the forearm forward and holding up on the slide lock release, so holding the forearm forward when shooting allows the action to open even easier. Don't confuse this with the bolt blowing open.
The Japanese made Model 12's, do not slam fire like the real ones do.
The 1897 Winchester shares quite a few of these features as well. Release the hammer and move the forearm forward and you'll hear a click, the action will now open.
You'll notice the patent dates on the right rear of the barrel, on pre-1941 Model 12's, share patent dates with the 1897 and the 1893 Winchester pump shotgun.
Here's a photo of one of my 1897's. It's a factory two barrel set from 1901.
You can see where T.C. Johnson got the front half of his Model 1912. They already had it with the 1897 takedown models.
Regards:
Rod
Last edited:
Thanks for the info. on the Model 12! No, this gun doesn't have a rib of any kind. The only small problem it had was that the carrier on the underside will stick in the "up" position occasionally. Owner said it feeds, fires, and ejects as it should. He took it to a gunsmith to have the carrier problem checked. We'll see what happens.
I hope this clears up the "bolt blowing open" issue. I am far from an expert but I have owned quite a few and have studied them for a quarter century, so it puzzled me that this was the first I heard of such a thing. Without using the proper terninoligy, what I call the slide safety, is where I as well believe the thread went awry. I have seen a few model 12's so worn that when you pointed the gun up and dry fired it you could see the slide safety no longer worked. This is how this amature expert determines how much a 12 has been used.
I don't consider myself an expert on the M12. My Dad bought me my M12 when I was 13, in 1960, so we could trapshoot and hunt together. Its a 12 ga., 30" barrel, full choke, ventillated rib, and Raybar sight. It has fired over 3/4 of a million rounds over the past 54 years, mostly north american and international trap, singles and doubles. I have hunted pheasant, goose and grouse with it. It has survived immersion in water, been buried in mud, and a host of other abuses. I have used light, med, and maximum loads in it and the only part that has needed to be replaced was the firing pin, which wore out once, and broke once. I field strip it and clean and oil it after every use. Never once has it "blown open". Best gun I ever had.
The only other gun that felt almost as good to shoot was my Browning Superposed O/U,which kicked like a mule. Remington arms tried to get me to shoot an 870TC, but if felt like a tin can by comparison to my M12.
I will hand down my M12 to my son.
The only other gun that felt almost as good to shoot was my Browning Superposed O/U,which kicked like a mule. Remington arms tried to get me to shoot an 870TC, but if felt like a tin can by comparison to my M12.
I will hand down my M12 to my son.
Watchdog
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2013
- Messages
- 12,511
- Reaction score
- 32,351
The 16-gauge is regaining its popularity, and frankly, it has never fallen out of favor around where I live. Ammo is in fairly good supply as well.
All my Model 12s are 12-gauge, though, the oldest one going back to 1941. But mechanically, I've never had a problem with any of them. The Model 12 wasn't called "The Perfect Repeater" for nothing. They're extremely strong guns. Matter of fact, the Model 12 sort of killed itself off. All that machining from a block of steel and all that hand assembly and fitting...it just kind of priced itself out of the market to all but the most dedicated M12 fans. There's one in an LGS here...hand engraved, inlaid in gold, fancy walnut stock and forend...it's for sale for $13,000.
I think the price for the one you're looking at is a bit steep...there should be some wiggle room there. Then again, if you have the money and it's what you want, buy it and don't worry about resale value.
Watchdog
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2013
- Messages
- 12,511
- Reaction score
- 32,351
"Amateur expert"...I like that. I'll have to remember that one next time I hear someone mouthing off in an LGS or at a gun show about something they think they know. Yep, that one made me smile.
This thread is dear to me. I have 2 mdl. 12's....A 20 ga. from 1957 and my Dad's 12 ga. 2 bbl. set(32" solid rib/27" cyl.bore) that he gave me in 1978. I also have a near perfect 1897 with a 32" bbl.. These old guns are dear to me and I hunt with all of them. As far as a 12 or 97 blowing open....doesn't happen.
Texas Star
US Veteran
How good are the repro M-12's from Miroku? Both Browning and Winchester have imported them under their names. One that I saw was quite nice, a higher grade gun with some engraving and very nice wood. It was a 20 ga.
They are of high quality and should last as long as the older ones. My BIL has had one in 20 ga. for years.
old&slow
Member
Sorry, I don't know much about the Winchester model 12. Just that they always seemed to fit me just right and pointed great.
My grandfather use to tell me about his 16 ga. model 12 with a 30 inch full barrel that he swore was the tightest shooting, could kill a squirrel in the next county ,, best shotgun ever made.
Last year I took the 16 ga. model 12 , 28 inch barrel full choke that my father gave me to a local shoot. I think my grandfather may have been right. With what appears to be a 20 ga frame it has really nice lines, pattern seemed quite tight, and shot great.
Sweet little firearm , although the full choke is a bit tight for most of the stuff I do.
My grandfather use to tell me about his 16 ga. model 12 with a 30 inch full barrel that he swore was the tightest shooting, could kill a squirrel in the next county ,, best shotgun ever made.
Last year I took the 16 ga. model 12 , 28 inch barrel full choke that my father gave me to a local shoot. I think my grandfather may have been right. With what appears to be a 20 ga frame it has really nice lines, pattern seemed quite tight, and shot great.
Sweet little firearm , although the full choke is a bit tight for most of the stuff I do.
gmiller0737
Member
I also Own 2 Winchester Model 12's a Early 20 Ga. 1913 Production & a 50's Vintage 12 Ga 3" Marked For Super x & Super Speed,Plus a Browning Model 12 in 28 ga & A Winchester Model 42 .410, I haven't used the Older 20 much But The 3" I hunted with a fair amount & it throws 3" #1 Buckshot Really Well,With a Model 12 you can just feel the Quality when you use it,I also have a couple of Remington 870's & They are good quality well proven guns but they just don't feel like a Model 12
Mod 12s that have seen lots of use, like Trap shooting, can get worn
to the point of blowing open, if that's the proper term. The rear of the
bolt locks into a recess in the receiver and with lots of wear the
amount of contact between bolt and receiver can get less and less.
It happened to a guy I shot with and he had to get his gun completely
rebuilt. The condition of the recoil shoulder in the receiver is one
indication of wear.
to the point of blowing open, if that's the proper term. The rear of the
bolt locks into a recess in the receiver and with lots of wear the
amount of contact between bolt and receiver can get less and less.
It happened to a guy I shot with and he had to get his gun completely
rebuilt. The condition of the recoil shoulder in the receiver is one
indication of wear.
I knew better than to open this thread. Now I'll be looking at M12s when I'm at a show, but then I usually look at a couple anyway. Maybe it's time I got one, heck they're cheaper than most Model 10 S&Ws.
I'm an Amatuer Expert. In here, I'm an amatuer, after listening to most guys behind a gun counter, I feel like an expert.
When someone who knows nothing about guns, asks me if I know anything about guns, I'd say, "I know a lot about guns."
In here, I know a little about guns. (but I'm always learning.)
I'm an Amatuer Expert. In here, I'm an amatuer, after listening to most guys behind a gun counter, I feel like an expert.
When someone who knows nothing about guns, asks me if I know anything about guns, I'd say, "I know a lot about guns."
In here, I know a little about guns. (but I'm always learning.)
You sound a lot like me. I know a little bit about a lot of things, but I don't know a whole lot about anything. Model 12s have been my shotgun of choice my whole life. I have a late 1963 model 20 guage and an early 1940s war horse. It's a WWll army riot gun that's been sporterized on every corner. I have had this shotgun since 1954 and gave $55.00 for it at Motgomery Wards.
in8kaos
Member
1939 model 97 Winchester 12 ga
Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.
Did these come with a poly choke? Looking at one that has one, and trying to see if it is original, but can't find anything online.
Skeetr57
Member
The model 12 was introduced in 20 gauge, chambered for 2 1/2" shells and with 25" barrel in all chokes. The 12 gauge came along a couple of years later. I don't recall when the 16 gauge was introduced, but it originally had 2 9/16" chambers. Later the guns were made in 28 ga and 12 ga 3" versions. All except the 12 gauges were built on the 20 ga frame. I have owned all gauges and chamber lengths over the years, and still have and still have an early 20gauge, several 12's, including a 3", and a 20 ga Browning made gun. The Browning made gun was prone to jamming when operated rapidly until I replaced the trigger/hammer group with an original Winchester part. Now it works just fine. The early 29 gauge chambers can be opened out to 2 3/4" easily but the early 16 ga guns also require lengthening the ejector port a bit for use with all brands of shells. In some areas where trap shooting has been popular, it is difficult to find good original 12 gauge, long barrel guns in original condition because they were so popular at that sport. My early 20 gauge gun is the only one that I was ever able to down 5 wild quail on a covey rise with.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
