I just got a depressing call from Houlton ME PD Updated 7/20

[steamloco76]

The FFL dealer who sold you the stolen property should refund you the money. You legally purchased the firearm from him with no reason to suspect you were in fact receiving stolen property that would later be confiscated. Where is the downside to buying stolen guns for the dealer if there is no financial responsibility to the unsuspecting consumer who purchases said stolen property?

 

[photoman]

Good luck with this, I would bet that you are going to get your money back from the perp as part of a deal.

Here is something to think about...

Am I right in assuming this perp is going to do five hard for stealing guns? Didn't the NRA push something through Congress a while back for this? If so, it'll be a long, long time before our guy sees his money.

 

[photoman]

I think I will contact the Maine division of the BATF tomorrow...

I gotta tell you, one friend to another... Talking to the ATF would be my absolute, LAST option.

 

[photoman]

My 2 cents are to take the time (and for 1K I would) to visit ftf with the dealer, explain the situation, and I would bet he would make it right with you. Legal or not if he's reputable, he does not want this to get around.
There are a few good people out there, you may find one.

Remember, the dealer already knows about the situation (that's how the cops got to our guy). I'm thinking a quick visit to the dealer is going to clear this all up. Now that I think about it, I bet FFL's can purchase business insurance to cover for this sort of thing.

 

[RogerA]

Years ago, I bought a used Colt 22 from my local FFL dealer. Back then we had to go to the sherif's office to get a permit. I did all the paperwork, they ran the numbers, I bought the gun. 2 years later, I traded the gun back to the same dealer on another gun. 6 months later, I'm in his shop and he tells me that the gun was stolen and the BATF had come by and picked it up!!! Who knows how they found it?

 

[71vette]

Remember, the dealer already knows about the situation (that's how the cops got to our guy). I'm thinking a quick visit to the dealer is going to clear this all up. Now that I think about it, I bet FFL's can purchase business insurance to cover for this sort of thing.

This right here. If it's a reputable FFL he will have insurance for this. He will have no question to the validity of the claim as the police have already been there to research who the weapon was sold to. The dealer is the one who bought and sold stolen property (we will assume unknowingly). You should not have to eat a $1K loss. Let the perp pay the FFL's insurance, not you.

 

[Florida Guy]

I agree with many others that the dealer should be the one to refund your $$$.
Are the police charging him with receiving (and selling) stolen property?

 

[redbos]

I live in MA and my cousin is a Lt and my Dad is a retired Trooper. They both said( they are nto lawyers) that the dealer is responsible to refund your money. Yu bought it legally, in good faith and within the law, the Dealer screwed up, not you. I dont think that you should be punished...

 

[NMPinNYC]

I would return the gun to the FFL for a refund of the pruchase price...

 

[wheelgun28]

I am curios as to why the person that stole the gun (lets call him the crook from here on) would have to pay the OP. The Op had a transaction with a dealer, the dealer had a transaction with the crook. The dealer made money on the transaction. The OP and the crook have never had a transaction.

We cannot connect the OP and the crook other than possessing the stolen item.

It would seem that the dealer bought a bad item and needs to absorb the loss, its just one of the many costs of doing business. If the dealer wants restitution he should go after the crook.

Why would the crook pay the OP above the price he sold it to the dealer for? If the crook had to pay the OP, the dealer still makes his money, has no aggravation and walks away clean. All for a deal that he worked both sides of, buyer and seller.

I am curious as to how this unfolds, $1000 isnt a fortune but its more than I want to lose. I would invest my time to try and recover it.

We dont need to meet the criteria of a criminal case with evidence for this. If the dealer knowingly or unknowingly bought and sold a stolen item here is irrelevant. The fact is he did buy and sell a stolen item.

To me well yeah it stinks, but things happen in life. We all make mistakes, what matters is how we fix them.

 

[dsink]

The FFL would only be charged with receiving stolen property IF they can prove he bought it knowing it was stolen. The FFL also has no legal reason to give the buyer his money back, moral yes, being a good business man yes, should he give him his money back, yes or offer him credit on another firearm.

I dont know about Maine but NC has no way for a dealer to check and see if a firearm is stolen. Pawn shops have to turn in serial numbers on all firearms they buy to there local Law enforcement every week. A gun shop or FFL holder just buys a used firearm and hopes its not stolen.

I bought a handgun a few years ago and after about 6 months the store owner called and asked if I still had it. The Sheriffs office had been buy and said it was stolen. He asked me to bring it back and offered me a full refund or store credit, he kept telling me how sorry he was. I said to not worry about it becouse I was glad the orignal owner would be getting there firearm back.
I ended up picking up another handgun and he knocked off the price I paid for the stolen one. The dealer took the lose of money but made a good customer.

 

[RonS]

Any of us who have ever bought a used gun should think carefully before advocating that someone be charged with "receiving stolen property" when there is no reason to believe that the FFL had any reason to suspect the gun was stolen.

I for one would rather be out the cost of one gun rather than lose all my guns and go to prison or see another shooter do the same over an innocent purchase. Of course I would also feel a lot better if I thought the thief was likely to be convicted and do serious prison time.

 

[4506517]

As others have said, contact the dealer and be cordial about it. He already knows what the situation is because law enforcement has already paid him a visit. If he is a reputable business man, he will refund your money.

If he refuses, I would sue him in magistrate's court. You will be out court costs, filing and serving costs, but you can include them in the complaint and be reimbursed for those costs. Based on my experience, I seriously doubt a magistrate would find against you. I would definitely document every step you took before filing. That way the magistrate will know you tried to resolve it amicably before you brought it to court.

Just my opinion.

 

[CelticSire]

2005 Maine Code - §359 — Receiving stolen property

1. A person is guilty of theft if:

A. The person receives, retains or disposes of the property of another knowing that it has been stolen, or believing that it has probably been stolen, with the intent to deprive the owner of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [2001, c. 383, §46 (new); §156 (aff).]

B. The person violates paragraph A and:
(2) The property stolen is a firearm or an explosive device. Violation of this subparagraph is a Class B crime;

Unless it can be PROVEN that the FFL had, or should have had, knowledge that the weapon was stolen, they can't be charged. The best bet for the OP is to contact the Maine Attorney General's Office, specifically the Consumer Protection Division, and determine exactly what recourse he may or may not have under Maine law. This leaves out the BATF and eliminates the need to hire a private attorney.

 

[Ronno]

That stinks like a skunk… I could not imagine having to go through that with one of my "toys"

I would at least ask the police about the dealer having to pay you back or give you another gun in it place and the DA should make the crumb who stole it pay the dealer back, not pay you since you did not buy it from the jerk…

Just my $.02…

 

[Hayfield123]

See the FFL - he may be willing to give you your money back. If not, either get a lawyer involved, or ask the FFL for "Store Credit" for the amount you are out. It would be cheaper for him than handing you $1,000, since you'd be paying full price for something he got for less. If he refuses that, then get a lawyer . . . or at least suggest you plan to do so.

 

[Fishinfool]

You said "NCIS", but I think you must have meant "NICS". Right?
"NCIS" means Naval Criminal Investigation Service, for which a TV show has been named. I can understand why they wouldn't want you to call them.

FBI — Gun Checks/NICS

Actually NICS is incorrect in the context being used. NICS is to check the potential buyers suitability to purchase a firearm.

NCIC (National Crime Information Center) is the data base open to all law enforcement that maintains a registry of stolen firearms. Most police departments will run a check for you if you call and explain you are purchasing a firearm from a private party, and want to make sure it is not stolen.

Larry

 

[DRB]

Since you can not lawfully transfer title to stolen property the dealer owes you your money back. It does not matter if he did not know it was stolen property. I bought a Luger a few years ago and about 6 weeks later got a call from the cops saying it was stolen. I returned it to the dealer and he gave me my money back. He was pissed because it was a consignment gun and he had already paid off the owner. Well about 3 weeks later I got another call saying the cops had messed up and it was not stolen so i went back and bought it back. The dealer was nice about offering the money back and then about giving me first shot at it when they got it back. FWIW possesion of stolen property is a crime and the burden of proof that you did not know it was stolen is on you. Now one stolen gun out of many and a reciept from a dealer is probably going to suffice. The cop offered me the option of having the gun confiscated and me getting nothing if I did not take it back to the shop. Had that happened I would have filed a claim in small claims court and most likely would have won. I know a family that owns a pawn shop and they deal with stolen stuff all the time. They have had to testify in court several times. Since they are upfront about it all and run a legitimate business they lose what they loaned and are due restitution. It it rare for a pawn shop owner to be charged but I have seen it happen twice. One guy was contracting with a group of home invasion thugs to bring him a steady supply of stuff. He clearly knew it was stolen. The other was a owner contracting with homeless people in downtown Seattle to shoplift new stuff. The owner would give them a small payment for it then sell it on ebay. He was telling them just what to steal.

 

[Buford57]

Thanks for all your replies, I discussed this with the detective and he told me that the dealer was not liable because he did not steal the gun, he purchased it from the thief. The only way I could expect a refund from the dealer is out of the kindness of his heart. I don't know much about the dealer as I had never dealt with him before, it was just a table at a gunshow. I probably will contact him tomorrow but I'm in the midcoast and he is way up in northern Maine so its not feasible for me to go knock on his door.

The dealer may not be criminally liable (just as you aren't) but police detectives are not required to be experts in civil law (at least we weren't when I was one). Be polite, but be firm and don't rule out small claims if he doesn't agree to make you whole. The deductible on the dealer's liability insurance is probably close to $1k.

 

[CelticSire]

FWIW possesion of stolen property is a crime and the burden of proof that you did not know it was stolen is on you.

Since when in the United States is it considered legal procedure for a defendant to carry the burden of proving innocence? Have you somehow managed to miss two hundred plus years of Constitutional law?