I just got a depressing call from Houlton ME PD Updated 7/20

[CajunBass]

Just where is this magical database that knows a gun is stolen, perhaps even before the victim knows it's stolen and reports it? Now mind you, I have no idea if that's the case here or not, but I can see a situation where someone could steal 32 guns over a period of time from one person, and they not be noticed missing for some time. Not many people take inventory every day.

There's something not right here. It should have hit stolen when the background check was run.

When a background check is run there is no information about the gun given other than "handgun or long-gun (it may be shotgun/rifle). At least at the national level. Your state law may be different.

 

[smith41mag]

I see what you're saying. Here in Tn, we have to go thru the TBI (Tennessee Bureau of Investigation) and then, they send it thru the FBI.

I think most states go thru the FBI.

When a background check is run there is no information about the gun given other than "handgun or long-gun (it may be shotgun/rifle). At least at the national level. Your state law may be different.[/QUOTE]

 

[S&W Fan]

I haven't seen a Maine FFL licensee answer yet so I'll ask: Is there a requirement in Maine for a dealer to check if a firearm is stolen upon purchase/trade-in?

 

[Hayfield123]

Havfield123 - I agree with what you say here. However, you assume that the dealer sold every firearm he purchased from the thief.

It is possible that the dealer still had a number of firearms in his possession when the police notified him they were stolen. He would have had to surrender those to the police and would have been out that money.

I am talking about the $1,000 the FFL received for the Model 19 from the original poster of this thread. The FFL owes him the difference between what he paid for the gun and what he sold it for. The other transactions are independent of this transaction.

Lets assume he sold all the guns in question but they were not stolen . . . he made a profit on each. Now, lets assume he sold them all and the police confiscated them from the buyers . . . he claims he was a victim, too, but he has just as much profit as if they had not been stolen. Each transaction is seperate . . . he bought a stolen gun, sold it at a profit, and owes that profit to the buyer, or he profited from the sale of stolen goods.

The other guns don't matter, as each transaction is totally seperate from the rest.

 

[smith41mag]

This is a simple matter to resolve. The dealer owes the original poster $ 1000.00, plain and simple.

Unless there's something about the laws in Maine that I don't know about.

This is not the first dealer this has happen to and it won't be the last. Things happen, but, the dealer is who owes the $1000.00 back to the poster.

 

[Mike 44]

Madmikeb

I had a similar situation happen to me a few years ago, only I made my purchase through a gun forum. I bought a 19-2 from a forum member who sold guns on the forums and was well known. A few weeks after my purchase I had the local sheriff dept asking me where the 19 was. It had been stolen out of Ohio. I had to turn the gun in and had to fight with the person who sold me the gun to get me a refund.

 

[luis]

Just some info.

The gun could have been reported stolen 18 months ago. I bet the theft got caught for something else or someone turned him in to save themself. It would then only be a matter of time for police to get the name of the dealer he sold the guns. The dealer looking at possible jail time would quickly open the bound book and give up the 4473s.

You need to get a copy of the police report no just the top sheet. I would be concerned about any personal information that might be made available to the public.

Years ago in Belle Glade Florida an FFL dealer had his bound book and 4473's stolen for his safe. The thef dumped all the papers as they did not have any value. However the police report listed the name and address of every gun owner the police notified in the event that they could be a target. Someone purchased a copy of the report from the department and six months later all the homes got robbed.

California is the only state that requires FFL holders to run used guns that they purchase from individuals and corporations via local LEOs.

Pawn brokers in every state are required to report all items purchased. Some state give as little as 24 hours the most is 72. Serial numbers are run to see if the gun is stolen.

Items without serial numbers are hard to match against a stolen list that is a good reason that the owner of TV's Pawn Stars does not have an FFL.

 

[CookE]

Being in Law Enforcement for 42 years plus & still working, my suggestion is this, if you're going to buy a gun from an individual, take down the serial number and call your local Police or Sheriff's Dept. and ask them to run the serial number through NCIC. If you don't know this ALWAYS REPORT STOLEN GUNS. I know some people don't because they figure they will never get it back anyway. But sometimes down the line the gun turns up and we can get it back to the rightful owner. If it is stolen and has been reported it will show up in NCIC and save you alot of headaches PLUS ALL THE MONEY YOU PAID FOR IT....My 2 cents worth..
CookE...........

 

[Frank46]

Something is not right here. The dealer said that the thief stole 32 guns and he (the dealer) bought the bulk of them. If I were a dealer and someone brought a large amount of firearms in, and if I didn't know the seller I'd be kind of leery about buying such a large number of firearms from someone whom I had no knowledge of. I may be off base here. Frank

 

[madmikeb]

I think the thief was known by the dealer, and he did not bring the guns in all at once. I just have to wonder, if the dealer did indeed know the thief, he should have known whether or not the kid had the the financial ability to have legally owned all these guns, and at what point should the red flags have gone up?

 

[wheelgun28]

I think the thief was known by the dealer, and he did not bring the guns in all at once. I just have to wonder, if the dealer did indeed know the thief, he should have known whether or not the kid had the the financial ability to have legally owned all these guns, and at what point should the red flags have gone up?

you make a good point.

Willful blindness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duty of care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vipermd]

CookE- As you know LE can access NCIC, but they need an actionable reason. In Mi I can not have #'s ran as a dealer or private person. I have to rely on my read of the seller. An offer to purchase a H&H 470 NE for 5K would prompt a call to a friend at MSP or SO. Where a SW 19 85% for 365$ would not cause me to call. I spoke to BATF today an was told that there is nothing on their website ( I already checked ) that would allow checking a SN#, nor would they do it. " if you think it is stolen do not buy it, call local LEO " My experience has shown " If it is too good to be true, it prob is not!!" 2 nights ago a friend (LEO)called about a like new AR for 400$, the seller had receipt, from a local store, ID- The only question is how good of a deal is it? Be Safe,

 

[gwing44]

Are you sure this dealer is a FFL dealer, not all gun show dealers are. In Tennessee the FFL dealers are required to do background checks on the purchaser and the weapon is checked as well. Good luck.

 

[quneur]

If the thief sold say five guns at the time to the dealer, I would still call to see if the name matched the serial #'s (FFL where he bought the gun from) or get the person's phone number and ID to make sure he was authorized to sell them. How hard would it be to say to the person, "I need to verify that the guns are actually yours to sell. I've been burned in the past." Most likely, the person would have refused and left.

Also, the OP should know that the dealer may also ask for restitution from thief and he may be higher up on the list (9 guns vs 1 gun). The dealer would get money from thief + the OP's money.

At the very least, I would ask the dealer to provide you with free FFL transfer service for as long as he has his FFL license.

 

[bama 686]

xcop,

I don't know Maine law, but I assure you that this is not the case in Virginia. There is no requirement or process for a gun dealer in Virginia to transmit any information about the individual firearm to the Virginia State Police when purchasing or selling a used firearm.

This applies to gun dealers. I do not know what the law is for a pawn broker. I assume that a pawn broker has a different license from a gun dealer.

Int he state of Alabama a licensed gun dealer does not have to run a check on firearm purchases.However,if the dealer has a pawnbroker license as well then he does which makes no sense to me.

 

[vipermd]

quner: You are correct, you need to see ID,name, address goes into the bound book. I also get a phone #. Unfortunately you can not call the FFL he got the guns from or a private person, only BATF can request that info and if you do get that call, you get a name call BATF and have them put you through to the person making the request, so you are verifying that it is in fact an official check. If you ( anyone ) called asking about John Doe, I will not,and may not give you that info by law. Since there is not a registry of stolen guns that is available to the dealer it can be difficult. If you question a sale, do not do it, your instincts are generally correct. Be Safe,

 

[Elmer]

I agree that something seems wrong, and I don't agree that you should bear the full price of this return if it truly was stolen. The dealer warranted to you that he had full legal title when he sold it to you. He was wrong apparently, so he breached the contract, so you are entitled to a full refund of your purchase price. Basic contract 101.

Exactly.

The dealer can seek redress from the crook he bought them from, but you bought the gun from him. When you buy a product from a business, you have an expectation that the business owns that product.

Don't know why anyone would think this is just "King's X, Oh well" for the guy.

 

[M3Stuart]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night...

Two aspects; criminal and civil. You guys have worn out the criminal/legal aspects.

Now for the civil; This would be what's called an 'action in equity' type of civil suit. The dealer sold you something which he, himself, did not have the right to sell. You would likely win this case, recovering all actual damages, legal and court costs in about 3 nanoseconds.

The ultimate sequence in civil, or equity, court would be; you sue the dealer recovering everything you're out. The dealer's recourse is to the perp (let me know how that works out for ya').

Not that I would really EVER recommend calling a lawyer; it appears to be your strongest option, or you could try to write a threatening letter first.

Edit: In practice; I would do the research, write the letter yourself, and deliver it to the dealer - threatening to sue. Stay focused and do your homework. Here's something off the net: "In contract law, rescission has been defined as the unmaking of a contract between parties.[1] Rescission is the unwinding of a transaction. This is done to bring the parties, as far as possible, back to the position in which they were before they entered into a contract (the status quo ante)."

Also checkout: "Specific performance is an order of a court which requires a party to perform a specific act, usually what is stated in a contract. It is an alternative to award/ for awarding damages, and is classed as an equitable remedy commonly used in the form of injunctive relief concerning confidential information or real property." You could sue him to make him give you that exact gun or give back the money" (or threaten it anyway).

Anyhoo, you'd win in court for sure because he sold you a stolen gun! These are all examples of civil actions.

 

[47D]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night...

Two aspects; criminal and civil. You guys have worn out the criminal/legal aspects.

Now for the civil; This would be what's called an 'action in equity' type of civil suit. The dealer sold you something which he, himself, did not have the right to sell. You would likely win this case, recovering all actual damages, legal and court costs in about 3 nanoseconds.

The ultimate sequence in civil, or equity, court would be; you sue the dealer recovering everything you're out. The dealer's recourse is to the perp (let me know how that works out for ya').

Not that I would really EVER recommend calling a lawyer; it appears to be your strongest option, or you could try to write a threatening letter first.

Edit: In practice; I would do the research, write the letter yourself, and deliver it to the dealer - threatening to sue. Stay focused and do your homework. Here's something off the net: "In contract law, rescission has been defined as the unmaking of a contract between parties.[1] Rescission is the unwinding of a transaction. This is done to bring the parties, as far as possible, back to the position in which they were before they entered into a contract (the status quo ante)."

Also checkout: "Specific performance is an order of a court which requires a party to perform a specific act, usually what is stated in a contract. It is an alternative to award/ for awarding damages, and is classed as an equitable remedy commonly used in the form of injunctive relief concerning confidential information or real property." You could sue him to make him give you that exact gun or give back the money" (or threaten it anyway).

Anyhoo, you'd win in court for sure because he sold you a stolen gun! These are all examples of civil actions.

Neither specific performance nor rescission apply here. Specific performance is when someone has backed out of a deal (breached a contract) and a court orders the breaching party to go through with the deal. This typically only happens when the "consideration" (what's being sold) for the deal is very unique making the payment of monetary damages inadequate. The usual example is real property (land). In this case the dealer neither has possession of nor title to the gun, so the court cannot order him to sell it.

Rescission typically applies when a deal is still pending (duties still exist under the contract) and a party "unmakes" the contract for a legally sufficient reason (the other party materially breached the contract). If the OP and the dealer had a contract to sell the gun and the OP had not yet paid the dealer and discovered the dealer did not have title to the gun, then the OP could seek to rescind the contract.

The OP can likely sue for breach of warranty of title:

§2-312. Warranty of title and against infringement; buyer's obligation against infringement

(1). Subject to subsection (2) there is in a contract for sale a warranty by the seller that
(a). The title conveyed shall be good, and its transfer rightful; and
(b). The goods shall be delivered free from any security interest or other lien or encumbrance of which the buyer at the time of contracting has no knowledge.
(2). A warranty under subsection (1) will be excluded or modified only by specific language or by circumstances which give the buyer reason to know that the person selling does not claim title in himself or that he is purporting to sell only such right or title as he or a third person may have.
(3). Unless otherwise agreed a seller who is a merchant regularly dealing in goods of the kind warrants that the goods shall be delivered free of the rightful claim of any third person by way of infringement or the like but a buyer who furnishes specifications to the seller must hold the seller harmless against any such claim which arises out of compliance with the specifications.

See Title 11, §2-312: Warranty of title and against infringement; buyer's obligation against infringement. Also check out De La Hoya v. Slim's Gun Shop

 

[CelticSire]

take down the serial number and call your local Police or Sheriff's Dept. and ask them to run the serial number through NCIC.

Which they will more than likely refuse to do because they have no legitimate law enforcement reason for running the serial number and such actions violate the user agreement between the agency and NLETS which controls NCIC and could result in the agency losing NCIC access. Law enforcement agencies are NOT allowed to run serial numbers for private citizens as part of business transactions! I know it's done, but it is NOT authorized and can cause the NCIC operator and agency a lot of grief.