LEO Question

[Kanewpadle]

Have a question for you law enforcement folks.

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time but never asked.

Here goes.....

Why is it that during a traffic stop, an officer reaches into the car to turn it off or take it out of gear that lethal force is authorized to stop the driver if he/she doesn't stop?

If the officer would not have reached in to begin with, he wouldn't be in immediate danger. Seems to me he intentionally put himself in harms way and because of that, someone got shot.

Could the officer not retreat to his car and resume the chase? Or is public safety a consideration?

I personally have a hard time with the decision to take a life just because I reached in to take the keys. Seems like a stupid idea to me.

Don't misunderstand. I understand what you fine folks do and I respect you. And I am not a cop and have never been in that situation.

Also, I completely understand that there are many variables to the question I ask.

Thanks in advance.

 

[27145]

I have always asked the operator to shut the car off and take the keys out of the ignition. If the cop reaches in to take out the key and shut the car and the operator takes off dragging the cop, i see nothing wrong with using DFF to save the officers life.If you drive off dragging the cop, you have to expect a response right? You cant blame a Cop for the perps reaction.

Being a NYC Cop (retired) , I stopped pursuing vehicles about a year on the job when I realized it was too dangerous to the general public. I would NEVER EVER chase for a traffic violation. I would chase an extremely violent felony suspect, rape murder etc. If I let him go, the danger to the public would be high.

I have never stuck my hands in a car so I never faced this.

 

[The Big D]

Don't understand your question(s.)

There were many occasions when I reached into a car to turn off the ignition/put gearshift into park.

These were, as I recall, instances in which the operator was non-responsive...NOT necessarily hostile.

Reaching into a vehicle has obvious hazards attached thereto. I will state unequivocally that use of deadly force was never a thought at that moment and teach that doing what is sometimes necessary has inherent risks.

That said, I cannot imagine a risk/reward situation more in a LEO's (and citizens in the vicinity) favor than reaching into a vehicle as opposed to resuming a chase.

Be safe.

 

[27145]

Wow, I just recalled I have shut off ignitions before, usually for a drunk at a green light, late at night. He was drunk at the wheel and fell asleep. Generally for car stops, i ask them to shut off the car and place the keys on the dash.

 

[Kanewpadle]

One reason I ask is this,

Several years ago in a neighboring city, the police pulled a guy over for a traffic violation. The suspect was non cooperative but still had the sense to pull into a parking lot close by. As one officer conducted the stop, a second stood by with an AR15. The suspect became increasingly verbally abusive and refused to turn off the ignition. The cop reached in and the suspect hit the gas. The cop was half in and out of the vehicle when the second cop shot through the back window and the drivers seat killing the suspect.

I wasn't there but that seemed pretty extreme to me.

There was a much publicized trial and both officers were cleared.

 

[J. W.]

Much of police work is about calculated risks. Jamming the car in park or killing the ignition could prevent a pursuit, all of which are dangerous not only for the officer and suspect, but the public at large.

That said, I think its a bad idea and quite dangerous. As far as BG getting killed...tought ****. Don't don't run from the police and you won't have a problem.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Much of police work is about calculated risks. Jamming the car in park or killing the ignition could prevent a pursuit, all of which are dangerous not only for the officer and suspect, but the public at large.

That said, I think its a bad idea and quite dangerous. As far as BG getting killed...tought ****. Don't don't run from the police and you won't have a problem.

Yes but, was the bad guy really that bad that he needed to die! Did he need to die because he made a stupid decision? If he was armed I could understand.

I don't want to hear tough**** from you or anyone else. That's too easy. I'm not a cop. I don't think like one. I would protect myself the same as you if I were a cop. But taking a life in that situation sounds a little to easy to do.

If I'm wrong, educate me. You LEO folks have an advantage that I don't. You see both sides. I only see one.

 

[27145]

Yes but, was the bad guy really that bad that he needed to die! Did he need to die because he made a stupid decision? If he was armed I could understand.

I don't want to hear tough**** from you or anyone else. That's too easy. I'm not a cop. I don't think like one. I would protect myself the same as you if I were a cop. But taking a life in that situation sounds a little to easy to do.

If I'm wrong, educate me. You LEO folks have an advantage that I don't. You see both sides. I only see one.

In a normal traffic stop I would not put my hands in the car, to protect myself. That being said, if a cop is half in the car, the perp is showing DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE to human life. The perp in your scenario chose his actions.

I was in a shoot out 20 years ago. The perp had a dispute with another guy and fired shots at him. He ran off, turned a corner and ran into me. I had my shield in my left hand and my gun in my right hand. I told him 3x "Police don't move" he chose to fire a shot at me. I returned fire and he was hit 3x. If he had stopped and dropped his weapon he would have been arrested for the gun and the attempted murder of the civilian. he forced my hand by shooting at me. This is known as "Fight or Flight". Instead he was shot 3x by me, charged with gun possesion, attempted murder of the civilian and attempted murder of a PO.

Just as my perp decided to fire, that perp decided to hit the gas with the officer in the car. They both suffered the consequence.

How many good people commit a traffic infraction and just receive their ticket and go on their way? Most.

 

[27145]

I would hazard to guess that the PO's involved are very saddened, thinking "Why didn't he just shut the car off" and do what he had to do? The Police are victimized in this case because they are just trying to stay alive but have to go through a gut wrenching grand jury.

I feel bad for a person to be shot, but that is what happens when you contribute to the situation.

 

[xray97]

To my way of thinking the suspect in that situation, IS armed. He's using his vehicle in a manner that shows a disregard for human life. Dragging someone from a moving vehicle is lethal force. Pavement is very unforgiving to the human body.
An officer reaching in a vehicle is (normally) not a good idea but does an officer deserve to die for a (possible) lapse in judgement?
The suspect wasn't , most probably, shot for driving away from a traffic stop. He was probably shot to stop the deadly assault.

 

[Kanewpadle]

To my way of thinking the suspect in that situation, IS armed. He's using his vehicle in a manner that shows a disregard for human life. Dragging someone from a moving vehicle is lethal force. Pavement is very unforgiving to the Hunan body.
An officer reaching in a vehicle is (normally) not a good idea but does an officer deserve to die for a (possible) lapse in judgement?
The suspect wasn't , most probably, shot for driving away from a traffic stop. He was probably shot to stop the deadly assault.

I completely understand the need to stop the suspect if the cop is in the car. What I have a hard time with is why it is OK to put yourself in that situation?

And I also understand that you must apprehend such people. But I don't understand the thought process behind deliberately putting yourself in danger?

Again, I realize that traffic stops can be highly dangerous and they are not all the same. But to put yourself in immediate danger doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Kanewpadle]

To my way of thinking the suspect in that situation, IS armed. He's using his vehicle in a manner that shows a disregard for human life. Dragging someone from a moving vehicle is lethal force. Pavement is very unforgiving to the human body.
An officer reaching in a vehicle is (normally) not a good idea but does an officer deserve to die for a (possible) lapse in judgement?
The suspect wasn't , most probably, shot for driving away from a traffic stop. He was probably shot to stop the deadly assault.

To add; can we say that the officer also and initially had a lapse in judgement by reaching in the vehicle? Or is that simply part of the job? Is reaching in the vehicle neccessary to apprehend the suspect?

 

[Kanewpadle]

Or is it simply a split second decision affected by adrenaline? A decision that latter on you might say "that worked out pretty good" or "that was sure stupid"?

 

[27145]

To add; can we say that the officer also and initially had a lapse in judgement by reaching in the vehicle? Or is that simply part of the job? Is reaching in the vehicle neccessary to apprehend the suspect?

No I can only conclude that the dead perp had a lapse in judgement and caused his own death. A senseless killing caused by the perp.

Think of the PO's who had to endure a trial because this perp couldn't do what millions of Americans do everyday, comply with an officers instructions when pulled over.

My Dad, Uncle, Brother and Cousin were NYC Cops, they never had to shoot anyone. This is 85 years of policing and no deaths thank God. The Police do not want to kill anyone. Even if they did, they would be afraid that the evidence would put them in jail.

 

[The Big D]

LEO's intentionally put themselves in danger every single day. Just as firefighters run INTO burning buildings, LEO's run toward problems...dangerous "problems."

(FTR, I could never be a firefighter...seriously.)

A good LEO must want to confront bad stuff/bad people. They must make split second decisions that will be judged much later.

They do it because it is the right thing to do...and in many cases that saves others.

Never has "reaching into a car" been taught...but, like many other things that are done, reaching into a car is the best course of action in certain circumstances.

Be safe.

 

[Kanewpadle]

No I can only conclude that the dead perp had a lapse in judgement and caused his own death. A senseless killing caused by the perp.

Think of the PO's who had to endure a trial because this perp couldn't do what millions of Americans do everyday, comply with an officers instructions when pulled over.

My Dad, Uncle, Brother and Cousin were NYC Cops, they never had to shoot anyone. This is 85 years of policing and no deaths thank God. The Police do not want to kill anyone. Even if they did, they would be afraid that the evidence would put them in jail.

That seems to make sense to me. But I keep thinking, gosh, just because I didn't listen, I got shot. I am sure that most suspects that make that decision, don't expect to be shot.

I agree that most people will comply. I've been driving for 35 years and have been pulled over several times. I always complied. It never occurred to me that if I didn't, I could be shot. I knew I would be in more trouble. But if I refused and the officer reached in my car, I might panic and hit the gas. Then again I might not.

 

[Kanewpadle]

LEO's intentionally put themselves in danger every single day. Just as firefighters run INTO burning buildings, LEO's run toward problems...dangerous "problems."

(FTR, I could never be a firefighter...seriously.)

A good LEO must want to confront bad stuff/bad people. They must make split second decisions that will be judged much later.

They do it because it is the right thing to do...and in many cases that saves others.

Never has "reaching into a car" been taught...but, like many other things that are done, reaching into a car is the best course of action in certain circumstances.

Be safe.

I respect our first responders immensely.

I think have answered my own question

Since people are all different and situations are all different, there is a gray area in which you must make a quick decision. Folks that can't think quickly on their feet probably don't last long as cops.

As with life, it's never one extreme or the other. There must be some balance.

 

[redlevel]

Don't understand your question(s.)

There were many occasions when I reached into a car to turn off the ignition/put gearshift into park.

These were, as I recall, instances in which the operator was non-responsive...NOT necessarily hostile.

Reaching into a vehicle has obvious hazards attached thereto. I will state unequivocally that use of deadly force was never a thought at that moment and teach that doing what is sometimes necessary has inherent risks.

That said, I cannot imagine a risk/reward situation more in a LEO's (and citizens in the vicinity) favor than reaching into a vehicle as opposed to resuming a chase.

Be safe.

LEO's intentionally put themselves in danger every single day. Just as firefighters run INTO burning buildings, LEO's run toward problems...dangerous "problems."

(FTR, I could never be a firefighter...seriously.)

A good LEO must want to confront bad stuff/bad people. They must make split second decisions that will be judged much later.

They do it because it is the right thing to do...and in many cases that saves others.

Never has "reaching into a car" been taught...but, like many other things that are done, reaching into a car is the best course of action in certain circumstances.

Be safe.

You and I tend to disagree a lot. Just to show you I am a reasonable guy, I think these are a couple of the best posts I've seen reflecting the philosophy, for lack of a better term, of a good officer whose main goal is service to the public.

"Be safe"

 

[27145]

That seems to make sense to me. But I keep thinking, gosh, just because I didn't listen, I got shot. I am sure that most suspects that make that decision, don't expect to be shot.

I agree that most people will comply. I've been driving for 35 years and have been pulled over several times. I always complied. It never occurred to me that if I didn't, I could be shot. I knew I would be in more trouble. But if I refused and the officer reached in my car, I might panic and hit the gas. Then again I might not.

Well, as a caring person Kanew, it is sad when someone is killed because they didn't follow directions.

The weird thing is as a retired cop I do not believe in the death penalty, too many people are executed that are innocent due to the imperfect, but best justice system there is. I do believe in using DFF to protect life. The story you related is tragic to the perp and especially to his family and also the cop's whose hand was forced. A senseless death is a senseless death, only the cop's cannot be blamed.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Well, as a caring person Kanew, it is sad when someone is killed because they didn't follow directions.

The weird thing is as a retired cop I do not believe in the death penalty, too many people are executed that are innocent due to the imperfect, but best justice system there is. I do believe in using DFF to protect life. The story you related is tragic to the perp and especially to his family and also the cop's whose hand was forced. A senseless death is a senseless death, only the cop's cannot be blamed.

It's real easy for me to sit back and say, "if I were a cop, I would never reach in someone's car."

But in an effort to stop, deter, apprehend someone, who know's, I just might.

To be half way in someone's vehicle, while moving, and my partner possibly shooting in my general direction seems reckless. But now I understand.