Question about H110 and 296.

[ArchAngelCD]

ArchAngelCD,

If you wish to argue at least do so intelligently and with something more solid than that comment.

I didn't insult you so why did you feel the need to insult me? If you want to trade insults at least take it to PM's so as not to make this fine forum a low place. You can act this way with someone else now because I'm done with this silliness.

 

[Rule3]

Come on guys, this is not a argument it's a "intelligent" discussion.

 

[semperfi71]

ArchAngelCD,

You spoke the ultimate, and best, comment when you posted this, "I'm done with this silliness."

And I refer to the word "silliness".

You are correct this is silliness.

A year ago or so I posted results acquired with MY handgun by ME and reported as MY experiences only. I posted that in MY opinion if one is interested in finding the most accurate load for their handgun they must be prepared to load and shoot ALL powders necessary for their desires.

I used shooting techiniques that have been in use by ALMOST ALL handgunners since the time I started shooting.

I did not, initually, speak clearly enough in the first year ago post that H110 and W296 are indeed the same powders as they come from the MANUFACTURER. But my comments, if properly read do agree with that. And I confirmed it in later posts.

I did then, and now, will continue to state that those two powders MAY not show the same accuracy in YOUR handgun and I do know they do not in my handguns....for 38 years.

NOBODY who disagreed with me went out and tested as well as I did, or better, and returned with any rebuttals to my comments.

NOBDOY who disagreed went out and tested anything and reported back to us.

NOBDOY stated how they test their handloads.

But several folks sure enough disagreed with my comments. Almost strong enough for me to think I had impugned the honor of their pet dog.

So much so that I really cannot believe they were reading what was printed. Even after I clearly stated I agreed about the similarity from the manufacturer, people still would post here about me not agreeing.

I am not an expert and make no claims to be. I refer to what works for me and how and why.

If someone chooses to try my methods, that's okay, if not, that's okay too.

But if someone wants to argue with me when I know I am right, the argument will go on forever.

Bruce M,
It is popular to trash lawyers, but the trash talk stops when someone needs a divorce, a will, a lawsuit for damages, or defense in court.

 

[Rule3]

Semperfi,

As a off topic I do wish to than you and all fellow service men and women for your service, where ever, when ever. With 9/11 a few days a way, we all need to pause and reflect on what our service men and women as well as all first responders have given to this Country.

Without this service we would not be able to have these hobbies and banter back and forth on the Internet.

So back to our regular scheduled discussion.

Oh, and Rule 51.

 

[semperfi71]

Rule3, thank you.

I was lucky, I spent three years at MCAS Yuma and all of my free time shooting and running around in the desert or fishing.

My Father fought with the 6th MarDiv at Okinawa and my younger brother fought with the 3rd Marine Recon twice in Iraq.

I hope we will always have the brave people such as we do today to defend us.

 

[cfplinker]

One thing that I have always been curious about regarding the H110/296 and 231/HP38 powders is whether the powders received by Winchester in the East Alton plant were blended further or given additional processing (deterrent coatings) at the East Alton plant. Or were they loaded into cartridges directly from the barrels they were shipped in. Likewise, did any blending occur before the powder was put in the containers for retail sale. If there was no processing at East Alton it could mean that they were blended at St. Marks to the burning characteristics desired by Winchester. However, communications from other posters seems to indicate that this did not occur.

So, does anyone here have first hand knowledge about how East Alton may have processed the powder they received before either packaging it for sale or loading it into cartridges?

 

[mkk41]

No , according to the folks at St.Marks. SemperFi might have another opinion.

I actually sent an email with link to this thread to the folks at Hodgdon. Let's see if they reply.

 

[semperfi71]

What I know about H110 and W296 as far as their original manufacture and sale by Hodgdons and Winchester is what is reported here by others.

They are evidentally the same.

I only maintain that in MY handguns over the years thay have shown a propensity to vary as to accuracy.

I assume it is because of lot differences.

 

[MDaly]

I work for Hodgdon powder Co. We have Hodgdon powder, Winchester powder and IMR powder.

I can tell you, that H110 and W296 are exactly the same powder and they have always been exactly the same powder. Not similar, or like but exactly the same powder. It is produced, put into large drums and then repackaged into consumer units of both H110 and W296.

This should clear up the issue but if there are those who do not think I am telling the truth or want to discuss this further call 800-622-4366 ext 110 Monday - Wednesday next week and we can talk about it.

Mike Daly

 

[semperfi71]

MDaly,

Thank you for that.

Do you know of, any reports of different accuracy levels between the two powders as I have reported here?

And would it be due to powder lot differences?

Thank you.

 

[Dragon88]

I can tell you, that H110 and W296 are exactly the same powder and they have always been exactly the same powder. Not similar, or like but exactly the same powder. It is produced, put into large drums and then repackaged into consumer units of both H110 and W296.

Do you know of, any reports of different accuracy levels between the two powders as I have reported here?

What do you not understand about "exactly the same powder"? If your data showed any differences, that merely means it is bad data. The ability to take this discussion round and round after even a Hodgdon employee has settled the matter for you is simply incredible.

 

[semperfi71]

dragon88,

I am afraid you are the one who keeps beating the so-called dead horse.

You even showed up to rudely press your point to me on another discussion.

Nobody is forcing you to use my suggestion so why are you so torn with this?

I posted that for ME the results of MY shooting indicated that a person might want to test BOTH powders out of their handgun for accuracy.

I used testing methods considered acceptable by almost every gunwriter since 1972 and by every handgun user who I have ever met in 38 years of shooting.

The only fly in my data is that I shot only one set of 5 shot groups and should have shot more. But again, many gunwriters and shooters have done the same thing.

You keep focusing on the issue of the fact that H110 and W296, as they are manufactured are the same powders.

Everyone here, including me agrees to that.

My statement is that when fired from the bench the accuracy levels MAY DIFFER. And that may be due to lot differences, same as if you bought two different lots of Bullseye.

My belief is therefore if one wants to trully know the difference in accuracy of ANY powder, including H110 and W296, One should shoot both.

I have stated I have done this test with H110 and W296 several times in 38 years. I have ALWAYS had differences in accuracy. Sometimes the differences are slight, and sometimes the differences are quite large, as displayed in my original post back in February of 2010.

Therefore I do not consider my data as "bad data". I am experienced enough, have shot enough, know enough about accurate shooting from a bench to know that I held tight enough that day to trust my "data".

If you, or anyone else wishes to prove me wrong, then do exactly as I did or even better, to the point of using a solid, mechanical pistol rest and produce your data here.

If you honestly pursue a test of your own I seriously would like to know the results.

I have no qualms about the truth, even if proven wrong. But I have not heard one person in all of these debates state that they have done their shooting as I did, or with better techniques, to refute my statements.

All I have heard is that essentially the "maker of the two powders says they are the same as they come from the factory". I have never disagreed with that statement.

Again, they are the same from the factory. Again, they MAY shoot different from the bench, MAYBE due to lot differences.

 

[semperfi71]

I would like to add this.

EVERY gunwriter and shooter I have read of, or seen has ALWAYS shot their RIFLES from a bench, upon a personally chosen rest. Hopefully, to their desires, as solid as can be.

They have shot groups of anywhere from three shots to over twenty at ranges all the way to 1,000 yards.

Their "data" has, as far as I know, always been considered valid. As tested by THEM.

All of the above is the same for handguns.

Very rarely has anyone reported accuracy tests on rifles and handguns done in a sealed labratory, with a mechanical rest.

I have done the same as thousands of shooters have to attempt to establish an accurate load for ME in MY handguns.

I stated that this is what worked for ME only. I only suggested others might try it.

If you do not want to try it, don't knock me around.

THIS is why I won't give the discussion up. I am not wrong.

 

[mkk41]

I suggest a blind taste test!

 

[Skip Sackett]

Lot to lot variations is the ONLY reason for the differences seen from lately manufactured powder, um, period.

Here is a test you can do to see if that is true or not. Go 40 miles away from where you usually buy your powder. Or 100 for that matter, buy a can of the same kind of powder as you now use ONLY make sure you get a different lot. There is a number on the can, don't buy one that has the same one!

Then, load them side by side, through the same press, same weights, same bullets, same primers same everything except lots of powder, go to the range and shoot them like you always do, because that is all that will ever matter to any of us, how WE shoot OUR loads, and take your data the same way. Make careful notes, take some pictures, share.


Simple, and I would like to know how things work out for you. Oh, make sure you have a chronograph too. That would be useful information as well!

Take pictures of the case heads and primers, that is always good to look at.

This is not a satirical post either. Do it and let's see the report.

Do one for W296 and one for H110, that would be interesting as well. Different lots then compared to each other.

I think I am talking myself into something I don't have time for! I will resist, you do it!

 

[semperfi71]

smith crazy,

You are correct. And I am going to do this.

I am going to load two different lots of H110. I will also load H110 and W296 of two different lots.

All of the rest I already do as to consistency of reloads.

I will shoot the same revolver, the M27-2 and the same load, the Speer 158 grain hollowpoint.

I will TRY to enlist the aid of one or two other very competent shooters to shoot the same weapon and ammo loaded by me. This will remove the factor of "only me" out of the equation.

I will take a chronograph as you suggested as I too have thought that also would be interesting.

All groups will be 15 shots each, not five.

My belief, all along is that lot variations of the same powder MAY cause a change in accuracy.

If I am wrong I will admit it. If I am proven right I expect my opponents here to admit it.

 

[Rule3]

If I may add, they must be new jars of powder from this Century
Not jars that have been sitting around for years or a quote from the old Johnny Carson show. "hermetically sealed inside a mayonnaise jar underneath Funk and Wagnalls porch since noon today"

I am more interested in numbers from the chronograph, the rest of the stuff is subjective and subject to human error

 

[BruceM]

"White is white! No it's not, white is black; no matter what anybody says I know it's not white but black!"

Ok maybe white is white but, then, have you heard of anybody reporting that white is really black-besides me that is?

This is insanity!

Bruce

 

[Dragon88]

I will shoot the same revolver, the M27-2 and the same load, the Speer 158 grain hollowpoint.

I will TRY to enlist the aid of one or two other very competent shooters to shoot the same weapon and ammo loaded by me. This will remove the factor of "only me" out of the equation.

The only thing you will be measuring is human error.

 

[semperfi71]

Post by Dragon88,

"The only thing you will be measuring is human error."

Dragon88, how do you decide what is the most accurate load in your handguns?