Pre-war K-22 Masterpiece value

[Masterpiece]

Lee,
A couple pages earlier in this Thread,Mike(MJS5678),actually swapped Hammers between his 22 Outdoorsman & his Second Model & found they interchanged quite easily with the exception of some minor fitment issues without the Hammer Stud having to be moved!! He beat me to the punch so I didn't have to try it on any of mine,but if his interchanged I don't see why others wouldn't as well!! Maybe a fluke,maybe not!!

 

[Masterpiece]

Curiosity Got The Best Of Me!!

Well Lee you got my curiosity up enough to physically check if the Studs were in a different locations or not!! In my opinion they are in the exact same location!! At least,that is,within a negligible amount without tearing both of the Revolvers I checked completely apart!! I removed the Thumpieces from both & measured from the Rear Face of the Frame Opening to the Rear of the Hammer Stud itself & they were within a thousandth +/- of each other so I believe it's safe to say they are in the same location!! Wouldn't you?? If so,now we know!!

 

[Engine49guy]

If hammer studs are in the same location could it be possable that the gun shipped with correct style 2nd hammer/trigger and was changed at some point?
We all know that transitional models occur but while I see Co. Historian Jinks states he "Believes" its original he does not offer any proof in the form of shipping records stating it shipped with a long action hammer.
Am I missing something?

 

[rburg]

Historian Jinks states he "Believes" its original he does not offer any proof in the form of shipping records stating it shipped with a long action hammer.
Am I missing something?

Company records aren't all that detailed. Roy has stated many times they were in the business of selling guns, not of leaving tracks for collectors 70 years later. Often the collector should be happy the shipping records are legible to the point Roy can decipher who the buyer was and what city.

 

[DCWilson]

If hammer studs are in the same location could it be possable that the gun shipped with correct style 2nd hammer/trigger and was changed at some point?
We all know that transitional models occur but while I see Co. Historian Jinks states he "Believes" its original he does not offer any proof in the form of shipping records stating it shipped with a long action hammer.
Am I missing something?

That seems to me a possibility worth considering. But what kind of problem would necessitate replacing the correct hammer and trigger with leftover parts, particularly when the frame looks that good and shows no major signs of stress or wear? If the hammer studs are in the same location, then it is the location of the hole in the hammer that necessitates the notchback design for the "standard" K-22/40 hammer, and maybe a tiny change to the radius of the arched surface under the spur. It would sure be nice to have detailed and dimensioned engineering drawings of the K-22 First and Second hammers along with their associated triggers.

 

[Harvester]

Good googly-moogly... I have created a monster!! LOL! You guys are too much... I am way outta my league. If I can liken this arena to something else... I feel like I could tell someone what time it is... but you guys could tell them how to build a watch!!

Of course, you DO have a bit of an advantage over me... I only have one K22/40... it sounds like between the rest of you, the other 1,066 are accounted for!! Just how many gun safes do you all have?!?

Thanks again to everyone for the continuing education,

~Humble Harvester

 

[Masterpiece]

I Second That!!

Dick,
You hit the nail right on the head!! Since none of us were actually there it's all speculation how this occurred & we'll never know for sure!!

On the up side,at least now we know that the Long & Short Action Hammers will interchange with relative ease if we're ever put in a situation where the Short Action Hammer gets damaged!! At least then we can substitute it with a Long Throw Hammer until we find a Correct Second Model Hammer!!

Company records aren't all that detailed. Roy has stated many times they were in the business of selling guns, not of leaving tracks for collectors 70 years later. Often the collector should be happy the shipping records are legible to the point Roy can decipher who the buyer was and what city.

 

[Hondo44]

Lee,
A couple pages earlier in this Thread, Mike(MJS5678), actually swapped Hammers between his 22 Outdoorsman & his Second Model & found they interchanged quite easily with the exception of some minor fitment issues without the Hammer Stud having to be moved!! He beat me to the punch so I didn't have to try it on any of mine, but if his interchanged I don't see why others wouldn't as well!! Maybe a fluke,maybe not!!

This all very interesting and it would be helpful to have the two hammers, long and short, pictured side by side to see what makes them long or short since Mike (MJS5678) established it's not the stud location.

What is still confusing is threads/posts on this forum about converting short action 38 K frame Victory Models IIRC, to long actions or long to short by moving the hammer stud?????

How a 2nd Model left the factory with a long action hammer does not surprise me. What does surprise me is that with all the S&W advertiising and promotion of the NEW 2nd model with Micro Click Sight and short action hammer, why a distributor or customer would accept it. That assumes however, they could tell the difference and there may lie the answer.

 

[Masterpiece]

Update:1st Model vs. 2nd Model Hammer Comparison

That seems to me a possibility worth considering. But what kind of problem would necessitate replacing the correct hammer and trigger with leftover parts, particularly when the frame looks that good and shows no major signs of stress or wear? If the hammer studs are in the same location, then it is the location of the hole in the hammer that necessitates the notchback design for the "standard" K-22/40 hammer, and maybe a tiny change to the radius of the arched surface under the spur. It would sure be nice to have detailed and dimensioned engineering drawings of the K-22 First and Second hammers along with their associated triggers.

David,
With all the speculation concerning the differences in these Two Hammers I just had to know so I got into my parts to see exactly what's what & here's what I found!! In comparing the 1st & 2nd Model Hammers side by side there is no difference I can see,or measure,with the internal dimensions between the two whatsoever!! The only appearance difference is the Raised Area itself on the K22/40 Hammer which is only cosmetic as far I can see & has no bearing on the Short Throw workings of the action!! So I suspect the Trigger and other Internals must be the key!! That is probably why Mike experienced some issues with the Single Action Mode working correctly when he switched Hammers & not the Triggers as well!! Everything else engineering-wise looks to be identical!! The Radius on the Arched Area under the Spur,as you called it,are the same as is the hole location in the Hammer where it rides on the Pin!! Sooner or later we'll get this figured out I suppose!! You are right though,some engineering drawings would surely be nice!!

 

[Hondo44]

David,
With all the speculation concerning the differences in these Two Hammers I just had to know so I got into my parts to see exactly what's what & here's what I found!! In comparing the 1st & 2nd Model Hammers side by side there is no difference I can see,or measure,with the internal dimensions between the two whatsoever!! The only appearance difference is the Raised Area itself on the K22/40 Hammer which is only cosmetic as far I can see & has no bearing on the Short Throw workings of the action!! So I suspect the Trigger and other Internals must be the key!! That is probably why Mike experienced some issues with the Single Action Mode working correctly when he switched Hammers & not the Triggers as well!! Everything else engineering-wise looks to be identical!! The Radius on the Arched Area under the Spur,as you called it,are the same as is the hole location in the Hammer where it rides on the Pin!! Sooner or later we'll get this figured out I suppose!! You are right though,some engineering drawings would surely be nice!!

Bravo Masterpiece! I just went back to look at Harvester's pictures with the hammer cocked and I'm sorry and will not complain about it if I'm corrected, but I'll swear his looks like a short action cocked hammer!! When I cock my 1st model K22 the hammer spur extends beyond the 'knuckle' on the backstrap. Then I went to pg 120 SCSW 3rd and sure enough the comparison picture of the long vs short confirms it.

I'm concluding Harvester's gun is a short action and since you proved the hammers are the same BUT W/O the frame stop notch on Harvester's hammer. In other words, a left over 1st model hammer and his serial # was an early one.

 

[Masterpiece]

What is still confusing is threads/posts on this forum about converting short action 38 K frame Victory Models IIRC, to long actions or long to short by moving the hammer stud?????

Jim,
It just so happens that when I was comparing these Two Pre-1940 K22 Hammers I did compare those to an Early Short Action Hammer you're referring to & internally they are definitely different in many ways!! The Hammer Stud Hole placement is most certainly in a different postition & quite a few other dimensions are not the same so this may be why these conversions had to move the Stud to change them from Long to Short & vice versa!! Just an observation as I'm not familiar with just how they accomplish this,but thought you'd like to know I did compare one while looking the others over!!

 

[Hondo44]

Well that is informative, thx Masterpiece. Apparently long to short action evolution was achieved different ways on different models by S&W. In the lockwork excluding hammer for K22s but including the hammer and stud location on others.

 

[Hondo44]

Harvester,
I do although have to somewhat disagree with the comment that Hondo made regarding the Grips!! I have seen & owned my fair share of these Second Models that were Correct with the Pre-War Medallion Grips yours now wears!! Most all of the ones with these Grips I've encountered were actually stamped with the Serial Number of the Revolver that was wearing them,but there are also cases of these having Grips with Penciled Serial Numbers as well!! I also believe when Roy made the statement that it had Checkered Walnut Grips when it was shipped from the factory it refers that yours are correct for your Revolver since you supplied him with so much information & also photos when you sent in the Letter Request!! Bottom line is,I don't think I'd rush right out & try to find a set of Pre-War Magna's thinking it is only correct if it has them!! I also don't think you'll have a problem with Roy amending the Letter either!! He's generally pretty good about mistakes like that!! Finally,you've got a Great Find there & I hope you enjoy it for many,many years to come!! Enjoy!!!!

I have to disagree with Hondo as well! LOL Roy stated "became avaiable.......another option....." So clearly I was incorrect, Magnas became an option in 1936 and likely less guns would have had them vs. service grips.

Harvester, another spelling error to have corrected; fast instead of "fact cocking".

 

[Harvester]

Thanks, Masterpiece and Hondo (and everyone else)... I think I will wait a bit before I send my request for corrections to Mr. Jinks to be sure I cover everything.

So... any chance someone has a extra set of 90%+ Pre-War Medallion Grips laying around that they would not mind parting with? The set on the pistol do not match its condition and I would love to have a better set.

~Harvester

 

[Masterpiece]

Hi Kent,
I looked through my goodies & don't think I'll be able to help with the Grips,but your best bet would be to post a "WTB" Ad here on the Forum!! I'm sure it's the best place to ask!! I think a couple of the guys here had some posted a while back,but I can't remember exactly who they were for sure!!

From your Photos I see no evidence whatsoever of your Revolver ever having Magna Grips so my thoughts are still the same as before in regards to this having the Grips you have on it now when it left the Factory!! You might also make mention in the WTB Ad that you're looking for a Set that are Un-Numbered or at least Pencil Numbered!! At least that way they can still be considered to be Correct as they'll have no Serial Number "Stamped" into them persay!!

I also think with all the discussion on your Revolver we're pretty much done finding anymore issues that would stop you from contacting Roy to send you a "Corrected" Letter!! I think adding the Serial Number & taking care of the mis-spelling of the wording should take care of everything!!

 

[Harvester]

Most excellent suggestion~ thanks again, Masterpiece!! I agree and I am off to post on WTB... and the correction request to Roy will likely have to wait until next week but it is on my To-Do list...

~Harvester

 

[Engine49guy]

David,
With all the speculation concerning the differences in these Two Hammers I just had to know so I got into my parts to see exactly what's what & here's what I found!! In comparing the 1st & 2nd Model Hammers side by side there is no difference I can see,or measure,with the internal dimensions between the two whatsoever!! The only appearance difference is the Raised Area itself on the K22/40 Hammer which is only cosmetic as far I can see & has no bearing on the Short Throw workings of the action!! So I suspect the Trigger and other Internals must be the key!! That is probably why Mike experienced some issues with the Single Action Mode working correctly when he switched Hammers & not the Triggers as well!! Everything else engineering-wise looks to be identical!! The Radius on the Arched Area under the Spur,as you called it,are the same as is the hole location in the Hammer where it rides on the Pin!! Sooner or later we'll get this figured out I suppose!! You are right though,some engineering drawings would surely be nice!!

Im sorry to resurrect the topic but there is still one thing that appears unsettled,
That is if the K22 2nd Model has the same trigger as the post war model.

If this is the case hammer trigger sets will swap between models as long as they are not inter mixed.
Has anyone tried or compared the 2nd model trigger with a post war trigger or tried a post war hammer trigger set in a 2nd model yet?

Also,
Could be the long/short throws were accomplished in different ways with the K38 and the K22 because the firing pin on the K22 is internal vs the hammer mounted pin on the K38.

Inquiring minds need to know.