FACTORY vs.RELOADS

[Rule 303]

I use the same kind of Factory Ammo our local Police use.
Because I know that if the Police Use It, it must be effective and safe. Exactly what I will tell the Grand Jury or the Petit Jury if it goes that far.

Put the Facts in Your Favor if you have to use deadly force.

Rule 303

 

[oldman45]

I carry a 45 auto ... if we look at most of the factory ammo for SD, its based upon ye olde WW1 and on 230G RN. while it functions well in the gun, I dont care for its function in front of the gun. I favor a 200G to 230G TC flat point, which seems a bit lacking in the market. thus, I carry both.

I have been shooting a .45 longer than most here have lived and I disagree with your assessment of available rounds or even the comparison between current and WWI ammo.

The rounds commerically available now is far and away above the ammo of yesteryear.

As to SD loads, have you tried any Guard Dog ammo in .45acp? It is vastly different in every way from any other, even if it is 165 gr moving at 1,140fps and will feed just as a JHP.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I spoke earlier regarding reloads for SD but didn't make it clear that I don't carry them or recommend others do so, primarily for legal reasons. On the issue of trusting my reloads, I do and would not hesitate to depend on them in a SD situation.

 

[venomballistics]

I have been shooting a .45 longer than most here have lived and I disagree with your assessment of available rounds or even the comparison between current and WWI ammo.

The rounds commerically available now is far and away above the ammo of yesteryear.

As to SD loads, have you tried any Guard Dog ammo in .45acp? It is vastly different in every way from any other, even if it is 165 gr moving at 1,140fps and will feed just as a JHP.

I haven't gotten around to those yet ... I have yet to see them on a store shelf.
My statement is based upon observed tendencies of RN designs. They simply excell at bouncing around, which lends to it being part of a solution to guns with problematic feeding. Unfortunately they continue to display this trait down range in the form of deflection.
Flat points tend to reduce this issue. while a truncated cone flat point seems a sweet blend between reliability and penetration

 

[Wayne M]

Pretty much a good shoot is a good shoot and a bad shoot is a bad shoot....no matter what you shoot 'em with. Back in the day we were once told it would probably take 5K to get us out of a good shoot(civil suits and all)......and we were the police. With the legal profession what it is that figure is probably at least 20K+ today. Anyway, we carried ONLY factory ammo. Just make sure you don't shoot somebody reaching for a smoke, you'll be good with factory or handloads.

 

[Stophel]

It seems lawyers are more terrifying than armed robbers!

 

[mrerick]

Factory Loads...

I attended Massad Ayoob's LFI about 20 years ago.

His point on this issue was well taken.

During a civil or criminal trial, you will likely be examined about the type of ammo that was in your gun.

If you had reloads, and this is disclosed in court, the examining attorney will want to ask you about the process of making them.

Why do you reload, to save money? ("isn't my client's life worth 25 cents you saved?")

How do you go about reloading them ("So you sit for hours alone concentrating on making these things, knowing that you might use each one to kill somebody?")

Why you don't do what normal people do ("So, don't most people with guns just buy their ammo in the store?)


All of this goes to state of mind, and is likely to negatively influence a jury that has no real familiarity with firearms, and all sorts of exposure to the bad guys in the movies and on TV.

Carry factory loads and the risk of this course of questioning completely evaporates.

Marc

 

[Arizona5906]

I carry my own reloads. I load them on a single stage press and double check every step. There is one really big advantage to reloading your self defense ammo. If you buy premium self defense ammo such as Cor-Bon you will usually pay about $25 per box of 20 rounds. At that price most shooters will not shoot very many rounds to test the ammo in their carry weapon. In fact I know several people who have not tested their carry ammo at all because it's too expensive. I have shot about 200 rounds of my defense reloads through each of my carry guns. I think it is very important to verify that your carry ammo functions 100%.

 

[TienLungTaoist]

This entire decision revolves around the idea of how much fodder you want to give the prosecution.

If you use hand reloads with extra power and bullets with exploding tips and they are dipped in poison and each bullet is engraved with "Die you worthless scum bag, I've been waiting to waste you!", do you think the prosecution will bring that little tidbit up in court???

Of course they will, just as they will bring up any little detail they can come up with. Trigger jobs, night sights, grip tape, weapon light, they can and will use anything at their disposal to paint as ugly a picture of your premeditated position of being a wacko prepared killer.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true! This is a court trial. They just have to convince 12 soccer moms that you are less than a poor helpless victim.

That said, I trust my reloads more than factory ammo, and it sure shoots better than factory. In my rifles I can group 5 rounds inside a dime at 100 yards, factory is well over an inch. But I'm not producing 10,000 rounds a minute. I custom create 1 round every 2 minutes.

I carry factory ammo for self defense. It will do the job.

And a comment about carrying a 44 magnum for SD: What will you say when your round goes through the bad guy and kills a kid behind him? I know, it can happen with any round at all, but my defense for using a .40 is that it is the approved carry weapon for all the police departments in my area.

You can bet a prosecutor will produce reams of evidence that the FBI, CIA, Military, Sheriff, and local PD have all rejected the 44 magnum as being far too powerful and the risk of collateral damage far too high to be used as a carry weapon. You'll just add one more hurdle to freedom trying to explain why you need a bazooka when the police carry a different gun.

I carry a 44 mag but even if I carried a smaller gun I would not risk shooting at a bg with someone behind them. I train in accordance to my gun. I have been training in weapons use since I was 10yrs old. every weapon requires its unique use. the way I train with my gun includes hand to hand as well as close, legal range, combat. If I were ever to have to draw my gun I would probably not use it in any of the conventional shooting stances, since I dont train that way. Usually I train from a lower crouched position often used in MA after gettting out of the attackers line of attack (allowing me to choose the safest place to shoot from), shooting in an upward angle and giving me the possibility to spring forward and do what I need with my opponent (disarm him, or use as shield/distraction) much like I would a knife. I could go on and on explaining how my weapons technique would apply to limit collateral damage but its hard to explain physical technique. Not saying for someone who will stand and shoot a 44 might be a bad choice but honestly for the places I hang out at Im more likely to run into a bear than a bg but one gun fits all. (why I bought gun) my in city will be a sp101 or model 60 when I can get the money Posted this just so its known that i would most likely not shoot someone with a cannon who is standing with a kid behind him. I felt I was being called irresponsible and I dont feel that way. BTW I just got into short arms as a sd weapon so I have much to learn and need money to buy something smaller.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I carry my own reloads. I load them on a single stage press and double check every step. There is one really big advantage to reloading your self defense ammo. If you buy premium self defense ammo such as Cor-Bon you will usually pay about $25 per box of 20 rounds. At that price most shooters will not shoot very many rounds to test the ammo in their carry weapon. In fact I know several people who have not tested their carry ammo at all because it's too expensive. I have shot about 200 rounds of my defense reloads through each of my carry guns. I think it is very important to verify that your carry ammo functions 100%.

I fire a few factory SD rounds each year but don't have the $ to use them for practice. I do, however, reload with Remington and Hornady bullets and by adjusting the weight of the bullets and powder loads can come very close to factory specs.

 

[hatt]

... If you buy premium self defense ammo such as Cor-Bon you will usually pay about $25 per box of 20 rounds...

No one should ever buy service caliber handgun ammo in 20 round boxes. Ever. It's just a rip off. Paying almost the same price for 20 as you can buy 50. If people stopped the ammo companies would stop. Ain't no 380/9/38/40/357/40/45ACP so special it needs to come in a 20 pack. Or OMG a 6 pack. I'm so fired up about this issue I'd use ball and LRN if that was all I could find in standard packages.

Rant off.

 

[papajohn428]

Ammunition companies spend a lot of money producing and testing SD loads. I could do much of the same testing, but I don't have the reputation of Winchester, Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon, so I carry the best defensive ammo I can find, and pay what it costs.

Attorneys are paid to sway the "facts" to their side. If I shoot someone with handloads, no matter how justified, any lawyer worth his salt is going to paint me as the Anti-Christ, a sick, warped, psychotic little man with a secret desire to shoot someone, anyone, with ammunition SO DEADLY he couldn't buy it from an ammo maker, he had to skulk into his basement and create it in his secret la-BOR-a-tory. Moohoohahahaha.

That's what they do. I choose not to give them that easy road to take, and carry Gold Dots or Silvertips or some other premium stuff, because my carcass is worth it.

 

[Lost Lake]

I carry a 44 mag but even if I carried a smaller gun I would not risk shooting at a bg with someone behind them.

So you would let the bad guy kill you instead of shooting? Or maybe kill one of your loved ones? You don't get to choose where you are in relation to where the BG is, and bystanders are, every time there may be a life or death situation.

It is for this very reason that police do not use armor piercing bullets. Or carry 500 magnums.

Enough of that, just so you know, if you were to hurt someone inadvertently using a 44 magnum to defend yourself, a lawyer would try his best to paint a bad picture of your rational thinking abilities. But as you said, you may encounter a bear more than a BG, so that alone is an excellent defense. Okay, we're done. I know you are a smart guy and have considered the scenarios.

Now about SD loads and testing done by manufacturers: Sure they test and test, but we have all the data they produce so we CAN load as well as they do. You can buy the same bullet they use and load to the same velocity. Then you have the same round. This would be my defense if I shot reloads. "I loaded to their specs to achieve the same results the big boys do, but I roll my own so I can affordably practice and practice more to be sure I am as safe as I can possibly be".

 

[NKJ nut]

Attorneys are paid to sway the "facts" to their side. If I shoot someone with handloads, no matter how justified, any lawyer worth his salt is going to paint me as the Anti-Christ, a sick, warped, psychotic little man with a secret desire to shoot someone, anyone, with ammunition SO DEADLY he couldn't buy it from an ammo maker, he had to skulk into his basement and create it in his secret la-BOR-a-tory. Moohoohahahaha.

That's what they do. I choose not to give them that easy road to take, and carry Gold Dots or Silvertips or some other premium stuff, because my carcass is worth it.

So says the internet. And.......
It's a nice theory but there are no known cases of it ever actually happening. Not even ONCE. Unless of course you are prepared to present some documented cases of this actually happening.

 

[rbswede]

FACTORY vs. RELOADS

I see a lot of opinions back and forth good response and helpful. My reloads are reliable but so are the factory loads. One good point that was made about factory ammo is that in some calibers factory is not there for carry.The .41 mag is one that comes to mind for me. Most factory for that is made for hunting purpose not to carry. I might be wrong but just what little knowledge I have .

Thanks

 

[WR Moore]

So says the internet. And.......
It's a nice theory but there are no known cases of it ever actually happening. Not even ONCE.

Well.....it didn't involve handloads, but a DA in Arizona managed to convince a jury that the use of factory 10 mm JHPs (and elicitied testimony by LLEA that it was far more powerful than what the locals carry) by one Harold Fish was indicitive of evil intent. FWIW, the media stated that at least one juror cited his use of that ammo as reason to convict. You can argue inadequate defense, and we don't know what the judge may have ruled as inadmissable testimony, but he still did time.

There's an attorney on this board who feels comfortable carrying his own reloads. But, he knows his local justice system and is a known factor to them. If you're just another yahoo, there's no point in creating difficulties. But hey, it's your shooting and your potential court cases, do as you will.

 

[hatt]

The Fish incident was a good example of why you don't talk to the police after a shooting.

 

[mkk41]

Though I have the utmost faith in my handloads , and have had a few factory rounds fail in the past , I'll still pack factory ammo. The bullets on top shelf ammo is sealed at the case mouth/bullet with tarpitch , and primers are sealed with lacquer. They resist water , sweat , oil . Besides , I usually carry Glasers and those projectiles aren't available to handloaders.

 

[mkk41]

The .41 mag is one that comes to mind for me. Most factory for that is made for hunting purpose not to carry. I might be wrong but just what little knowledge I have .

Thanks

Winchester makes their Silvertip in .41 mag. A 175gr JHP at 1250fps. If I were to pack my Mod.58 for SD , that's what she'd be stoked with.

 

[cshoff]

So says the internet. And.......
It's a nice theory but there are no known cases of it ever actually happening. Not even ONCE. Unless of course you are prepared to present some documented cases of this actually happening.

Are you saying there are no documented cases of lawyers attempting to "sway" the facts in a case or attempting to scrutinize minutia of details in an attempt to influence a jury or judge? I dare say that it happens all the time.