Pros & Cons of Disconnecting Magazine Safety?

[Squibb]

I have a couple of 3Gs that I CC. My favorite is a 3914 LS, and it has the safety. I took a CC course in April, and the instructor spent some time on the cons of having one. Notice I didn't say anything about pros?

As I have never had an occasion to reach for my pistol, I wonder how much of the extra second he claims a pistol without the safety will provide, is actually the case.

Sure would appreciate member's opinions pro and con. As you can tell, I'm not on a mission. I don't even know how to go about disconnecting the magazine safety, let along actually doing so. Thanks.

 

[OKFC05]

I usually buy my guns without the magazine safety, mostly because they are a nuisance in the clearing process at the end of the stage in competition.

However, I don't for the life of me see how a magazine safety has any influence on draw and time to first shot. Some don't like thumb safeties, but again, training cures that problem, and disengaging the thumb safety adds NO time to draw and time to first shot. Watch the 1911 shooters in USPSA single stack. I'm not the fastest draw at the match, but I can draw and fire a High Power from buzzer to bang in 0.9 sec, and a High Power has both a thumb and magazine safety.

Your post increases my suspicion that some people are getting certified to teach CC courses that should stick to the script and not ad lib. Details of design features are definitely NOT in the script, and IMHO, none of his business.

 

[18DAI]

The pros of the magazine safety, IMO, are that it is a kill switch in the event of a gun grab - and in situations where your pistol has to be taken off your person, lock box at the jail, trunk of the car, ect.

Mas Ayoob has written about many officers whos lives were saved by the magazine safety in their pistol. When the officers felt control of their handgun slipping away in tussels with felons, they simply hit the mag release and rendered their primary handgun into a paperweight.......while cancelling the felons ticket with their BUG. I love a happy ending.

The only two cons I've heard of, mostly from "tactical" types, is that it somehow effects trigger pull - it does in the Browning High power but not on any S&W I've ever shot - and that it precludes firing the round in the tube while changing mags.

Those that proclaim mag safeties "precludes firing the round in the tube" don't know how to operate a S&W 3rd generation pistol. By not releasing the trigger all the way forward, after a shot, you can still fire the round in the tube, with no mag inserted, in a S&W 3rd gen pistol equipped with a mag safety.

Something I've never understood is WHY do you need to fire the round in the tube while changing mags? Are you backing away from an advancing attacker and suddenly feel the need to reload? Are you in the middle of a huge empty parking lot with no cover? Why? I think that the folks who protest mag safeties based on the fact that SOME pistols may be incapable of firing the round in the tube during a mag change......should worry more about their training and tactics, IMO.

I have mag safeties in all my duty guns and several of my off duty semi auto's. I like them and consider them a positive feature. Regards 18DAI

 

[g_conway]

Training is the deciding factor in these encounters. Unfortunatly, many of the LEO's on the board forget one element of training that only LEO's can effectivly recieve.
A LEO contacting ANY ONE is always aware that the contact can go south at any time. With the types of situations encountered on a daily basis, their "standard responce" muscle memory is always on alert.

The average CCW holder is in that same position MAYBE 4 times in their lives. It is well documented that a manual safety that requires a "mental decission" and physical follow through will add 1 to 3 seconds to the time of someone who finds themselvs in a Fight or Flight situation. For LEO's who deal with that every day, it's a non-issue. To the rest of us, it may be the differance between life and death.

 

[Silversmok3]

Something I've never understood is WHY do you need to fire the round in the tube while changing mags? Are you backing away from an advancing attacker and suddenly feel the need to reload? Are you in the middle of a huge empty parking lot with no cover? Why? I think that the folks who protest mag safeties based on the fact that SOME pistols may be incapable of firing the round in the tube during a mag change......should worry more about their training and tactics, IMO.

I have mag safeties in all my duty guns and several of my off duty semi auto's. I like them and consider them a positive feature. Regards 18DAI

I was reading Jeff Cooper's old writings online, and in the volume contained Barry Needham's journal of his visit to Orange Gunsite before Jeff Cooper sold it.On the last day it rained on the range, Col. Cooper commanded his students on the line, and on the last drill in a desert rainstorm Mr. Needham had to do this drill. In his words:


Then we come to the man on man competition. Two people, side by side. Three eight inch steel plates at ranges between 7 and 15 meters. Drop two plates, reload, drop the third plate. First person done wins that round. Double elimination torment. At the end there is only one. Sounds easy, it isn't. You can tell if you are ahead or behind. The pressure builds in each round. I won the first round. Second round, I miss the second plate but pick it up with a fast second shot. I'm behind. Reload, drop the mag, new mag, fast - fast - fast, pick up the target, frontsightpresss! My plate goes flying backwards with a center hit of 10mm a few hundredths of a second before the other plate tips over.

I check my weapon, the magazine is hanging half out of the butt of the pistol - I hadn't seated it fully. As I start to correct the situation Dennis quizzes me,

"Did you notice what happened?"

"Yes Sir!"

"Why didn't you seat your magazine fully?"

"I was behind Sir! Second and third rules of a gun fight Sir! Cheat and win Sir!"

I won that round, I guess I came up with the correct answer. I will never, ever, have a magazine safety on one of my tactical pistols.



The full article is here and is worth a carefee read with a cup of coffee sometime :Barry's Orange Gunsite Trip.

So theres one example where a magazine disconnect *might* have hurt .

Speaking for myself as a citizen who carries, I am factually not that good with a pistol to have to worry about 'shooting during the reload' and likely will not be for some moons to come.

In fact a magazine disconnect is a positive reason why im collecting S&W semi autos right now-since I live somewhere where the only legal places to store my weapons are a police armory and my car,all I need do to prevent usage of my weapons in case of theft is keep the magazines on my person.The bad guys can steal them, but until the felons get new mags the guns are paperweights.Since S&W semi-auto mags are special order only in these parts, that will buy me enough time to notify the police before the guns can be used in a crime.

A second benefit of the mag disconnect that I ADORED when I had the 4506 was securing the gun around roomates.
I moved in with a friend temporarily only to discover that he and his wife have a , uh, spirited marriage.Lots of raised voices and slammed doors.Being able to 'safe' the weapon from tampering by either party when I was away was a tremendous relief.I was too broke to buy a gun safe, and having an external lock requires a key .........and external locks can be defeated.

Another positive benefit of the mag disconnect for armed citizens-on the spot security.Visiting a friends house and they have kids?Simply take out the mag and boom, gun is rendered inert.A former LEO at a gun store once said that for nightstand duty his former partner used to keep a loaded S&W semiauto by the bed-mag out. If he heard a bump in the night, the mag went into the gun and out he came to check it out.

The need for it hasn't happened yet, but if im staying over at a new girlfriend's place the magazine is coming with me whenever the weapon is out of my sight. Yeah, I have trust issues when it comes to my guns.

Wow, this post was way longer than I intended, but as it has happened for me the magazine disconnect is a feature to celebrate and not to despise.Again im not a LEO or military anymore, just an ordinary guy.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

The pros of the magazine safety, IMO, are that it is a kill switch in the event of a gun grab - and in situations where your pistol has to be taken off your person, lock box at the jail, trunk of the car, ect.

Mas Ayoob has written about many officers whos lives were saved by the magazine safety in their pistol. When the officers felt control of their handgun slipping away in tussels with felons, they simply hit the mag release and rendered their primary handgun into a

I know an officer that had this very thing happen. As he was losing control of his 5906, he pushed the magazine release. It saved his life.

As for the competition issue, I removed the magazine safety from my 5906 because of what I perceive as an unsafe practice of showing clear at matches. The R/Os had gotten to the point where they were making me show clear, then inserting an empty magazine, dropping the slide and pulling the trigger. De-cocking wasn't good enough.

This was another reason I switched to revolvers for competition. I'm beginning to find that even that chaps some of them.

 

[Joker18]

I can certainly see the safety side of the magazine disconnect from a former LEO's eyes, however I still can't help but opine the development of the magazine disconnect safety is a feature demanded by the anti-gunners.

As far a safeties go, I find them no big deal and simply a matter of training. I wound up with a Ruger P-85 as my duty weapon. Decocking the P-85 also puts the weapon on safe, but if the weapon is left on safe, the trigger is also disconnected. I simply had to build the habit of de-cock, return safety to fire position, and holster.
Like 18DAI stated "it's all in the training!"

 

[Silversmok3]

I can certainly see the safety side of the magazine disconnect from a former LEO's eyes, however I still can't help but opine the development of the magazine disconnect safety is a feature demanded by the anti-gunners.

As far a safeties go, I find them no big deal and simply a matter of training. I wound up with a Ruger P-85 as my duty weapon. Decocking the P-85 also puts the weapon on safe, but if the weapon is left on safe, the trigger is also disconnected. I simply had to build the habit of de-cock, return safety to fire position, and holster.
Like 18DAI stated "it's all in the training!"

On this topic, doing some casual online research reveals that the first magazine disconnect safety was requested by the French for the Browning Hi-Power.

As far as the anti-gun position, I find it ironic that gun owners despise a mechanical feature based on what some firearm-ignorant person decided in a legislative chamber in another state. So what some **** put it as law that magazine disconnects are required in State X.It doesn't change the merits of the feature.

 

[Will Carry]

When the attorney looks at the jury and says "This man has so little regard for human life that he disconnected the magazine SAFETY of his pistol that the manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, deemed necessary for the safe operation of this weapon. This man is a cold blooded killer.....yada yada yada blah blah blah...." This I got from reading Masaad Ayoob,

By the way. I disconnected the mag safety on my 22 target pistol.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

When the attorney looks at the jury and says "This man has so little regard for human life that he disconnected the magazine SAFETY of his pistol that the manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, deemed necessary for the safe operation of this weapon. This man is a cold blooded killer.....yada yada yada blah blah blah...." This I got from reading Masaad Ayoob,

By the way. I disconnected the mag safety on my 22 target pistol.

hmmm

I would've never removed mine except for the IDPA R/Os.

 

[g_conway]

When the attorney looks at the jury and says "This man has so little regard for human life that he disconnected the magazine SAFETY of his pistol that the manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, deemed necessary for the safe operation of this weapon. This man is a cold blooded killer.....yada yada yada blah blah blah...." This I got from reading Masaad Ayoob,

By the way. I disconnected the mag safety on my 22 target pistol.

Actually, S&W sells both. CALIFORNIA demands the Mag Safety for roster guns. Most other states have no requirement for Mag-Safe. The saftey is to PREVENT the weapon from firing. In a self defense situation, you pulled the trigger with the intent to fire, So if you loose that argument, you have a VERY lousy lawyer.

 

[Silversmok3]

Actually, S&W sells both. CALIFORNIA demands the Mag Safety for roster guns. Most other states have no requirement for Mag-Safe. The saftey is to PREVENT the weapon from firing. In a self defense situation, you pulled the trigger with the intent to fire, So if you loose that argument, you have a VERY lousy lawyer.

In my reading of Massad Ayoob's articles, the point he makes in civil & criminal cases is proving that negligence was involved in the shoot.

The concept is this-Rather than argue that Joe Felony was shot trying to rob John Citizen, their goal is to spin the story so that it was in fact John Citizen who negligently discharged his firearm into Joe Felony.

Disabling the magazine disconnect is a point opposing counsel could use to establish negligence-after all, how upstanding is John Citizen if he's disabling handgun safety devices?

Unless youre using your gun for competition, why bother disabling it?

 

[wha-tah-hey]

Hi all -

My view is, for civilian SD carry the pros of it outweigh the only con I can think of, not being able to fire during a possible tactical reload.

Even then, the time involved in finishing the reload so as to shoot again seems maybe less than the time, having shot the round in the chamber, to finish the reload w/the slide forward, chamber empty, and racking to rechamber.

Weighing the possibility of how often one might truly need to shoot in such a case against how often one might find good use of the advantages others have mentioned, I'll leave it in.
YMMV.

regards,

 

[Babalooie]

I recently purchased a used 3914. When it arrived at the shop where I work part-time, I did a quick checkout and noticed the mag safety wasn't working. Since Illinois has a three day wait, anyway, I took the gun apart in the shop and found the mag disconnect "hook" was broken. The next day, I took a new serviceable part from home and installed it in my 'new' gun.

All my S&W third generation guns have the mag safety and I feel comfortable with it. I'm no expert and don't shoot competition, but can't see any logical reason to bypass a perfectly good safety mechanism.

 

[g_conway]

In my reading of Massad Ayoob's articles, the point he makes in civil & criminal cases is proving that negligence was involved in the shoot.

The concept is this-Rather than argue that Joe Felony was shot trying to rob John Citizen, their goal is to spin the story so that it was in fact John Citizen who negligently discharged his firearm into Joe Felony.

Disabling the magazine disconnect is a point opposing counsel could use to establish negligence-after all, how upstanding is John Citizen if he's disabling handgun safety devices?

Unless youre using your gun for competition, why bother disabling it?

No disrespect, but "I intended to fire, and I did," pretty much negates "negligence." Every documented statement regarding Mag-Safe has to do with "gun scuffle, or ACCIDENTAL fire." Any defense lawyer will attempt to discredit anything you say, so I feel more comfortable debating a dead guy over it.

 

[kbm6893]

Unless you're shooting competion, where the rules require you to drop the mag, rack the slide, and pull the trigger to display an unloaded gun, the mag disconnect is a valuable asset, entirely disregarded by mall ninjas. These are the people who somehow believe that in the unlikely event that they are ever in a shootout, that they will have the presence of mind to count their shots and do a tactical reload BEFORE the threat is gone. They think they're gonna have the manual dexterity to drop the mag, and reload another mag cooly, while not fumbling it or trying to put it in backwards. Then, even IF they have that skill, they firmly believe that they are going to need that ONE round in the 2 seconds between mags during that tactical reload. Of course, they have NO real life experience or can even find any actual occurences where a mag disconnect caused a victim to be shot, to support the benefit of no mag disconnect, despite the TONS of real life occurences where a mag disconnect saved a life (cops as well as civilians). They like to say "what if if need that one shot during my tactical reload", but then won't admit that even IF they need that one round and are able to do that tactical reload, that they now have an empty gun, with the slide not locked back, and since handguns aren't instant manstoppers, except a brain or spinal cord shot (good luck doing that during a tactical reload), they need two hands to reload while a wounded person (if they even hit him with that one shot) is bearing down on him. It's a total joke. I used to watch Rob Pincus on one of those tactical shows, and he was a small town cop with a year or so on a part time. SWAT team. He left the job after like 5 years How many ACTUAL shootings has he been in? Mall Ninjas watch him and say "Yeah. A mag disconnect can get me killed. I can't have one of those. Then they blame anti-gunners for them, while ignoring the fact that guns have had them for nearly 100 years, inclusing the Hi-Power, which is pretty much universally regarded as a fabulous gun.

Somebody show me ONE case where they got somebody hurt. I'll respond with a DOZEN where they saved a life.

 

[wha-tah-hey]

My point precisely, kbm6893.

 

[Silversmok3]

Somebody show me ONE case where they got somebody hurt. I'll respond with a DOZEN where they saved a life.

Speak the truth!

Its not a thought that many of us who carry like to consider, but what if the so called street thug that tries something isn't some tweaked out drughead?

Criminals can take fighting classes too after all, and they can grab a gun from a civilian too.Just because it was concealed beforehand doesn't make any armed citizen immune to a well-trained criminal attempting a last-ditch disarm manouver-or his friend who snuck up behind you while you dealt with guy #1.

I know that's a lot of conjecture, but its my thought process that a magazine disconnect does more good than harm for those of us who aren't named Leatham.

 

[at-home-daddy]

I usually buy my guns without the magazine safety, mostly because they are a nuisance in the clearing process at the end of the stage in competition.

However, I don't for the life of me see how a magazine safety has any influence on draw and time to first shot. Some don't like thumb safeties, but again, training cures that problem, and disengaging the thumb safety adds NO time to draw and time to first shot. Watch the 1911 shooters in USPSA single stack. I'm not the fastest draw at the match, but I can draw and fire a High Power from buzzer to bang in 0.9 sec, and a High Power has both a thumb and magazine safety.

Your post increases my suspicion that some people are getting certified to teach CC courses that should stick to the script and not ad lib. Details of design features are definitely NOT in the script, and IMHO, none of his business.

That's what I took away from the OP as well. I think the instructor gave some bad and confusing info (or perhaps the OP misunderstood). A magazine safety has no bearing on draw and shoot time, unless it's not properly seated, but I doubt that's what the instructor was referring to. My assumption is that he was talking about a thumb safety, and was perhaps advocating a double-action gun w/out a safety (ala SIG, et al...or even a revolver). There's a school of thought that such guns present less hassle during stress and thus are better choices for self-defense, and for those who choose not to train or practice, that may indeed be the case. For them, point-and-shoot with the long pull of the double action may be the best option. For others who choose to invest the time in training and practice, there's no reason a thumb safety should present an obstacle to draw and shoot time.

 

[scootle]

I have been taught that in the real world, there are very very few documented cases of anyone actually performing a tactical reload in a real live-fire incident, let alone being killed due to something happening during such a tac-load. On the flipside, everyone will likely speed reload when the lead is really flying... you won't retain the magazine under duress if you think your weapon is running low unless you are very very highly trained.

There are lots of documented cases, however, of officers who "safe" their pistols in a physical altercation by dropping the magazine whereupon the mag-disco came into play.

In a class I took recently, we did some drills where we purposely started the drill with only a round in the chamber (mag out) and a holstered pistol. The goal was to get at least 2 rounds off to complete the drill.

The general perception was that, due to the mag disconnect on my CA-compliant M&P9, I would have no choice but to load the mag before taking 2 shots vs. some other students who had the option, but not mandated, to take a first shot with just the chambered round and then the follow-up. The overall timing was not particularly huge in terms of the efficiency of the two techniques. The main issue is that the sequence goes:

Draw --> fire (slide does not lock back) --> magazine in --> rack slide --> fire

versus

Draw --> magazine in --> fire --> fire (note there is no racking of the slide needed)

With practice, getting a mag into the gun quickly and effectively is a non-issue, I think.

The other issue to be aware of is that with some weapon systems, firing a single round in the chamber sans magazine may induce a (quasi-)Type III malfunction if one is unlucky, which you will have to remedy.

In the end, if anyone actually ever does perform a tac-load under live-fire, not performing it in a position of cover and/or relative safety makes for discussion about poor tactical choices more than anything else...

For the time being, I have decided to leave the magazine disconnect enabled in my M&P9.