.45 ACP vs. everything else

[Fishslayer]

You guys are just too old and arthritic to load magazines with anything smaller than .45's.

One word... UPLULA!

The high performance springs in Checkmate 7rd mags ARE rather robust...

 

[oldman45]

Why then do most LEOS and Govt agents carry 40 SW these days?

Nothing against the 45 in any way.

Nothing against the other calibers either but a lot of agencies are going to the .45acp. There are more LEOs and Gov agencies using the .45acp now than at any time in history.

I figure the more things change, the more they remain the same. Back during WWI, it was found the .45acp round to be most effective. During WWII, it was again the gun the Germans feared. NATO pushed for the 9mm due to lesser chance of lethal injury and being a common cartridge. As usual, the US government caved and went to a 9mm.

In the LEAs, they began pretty much with whatever the officer could afford, which was mostly .38 guns. Many yrs later as depts began furnishing the sidearm, they went to .357. Then when gangs were using the 9mm in the spray & pray method of shooting, depts felt they should go to high capacity guns as well. This meant using 9mm. Over a few yrs of field work, it was found to be lacking and agencies went to the .40 or the 10mm. Still not perfect as the officers were younger and not aware of what it was like to count on accuracy instead of capacity. The .40 & 10mm did not hold as many as did the 9mm but they were more effective. Then along came some more gov funded studies and field reports showing the .45acp was the most effective caliber and the dpets began going to it. Now many depts are issuing the .45 and certain special ops sections are using it even though the dept may use another caliber.

Granted there are some depts that are going back to the 9mm for liability reasons. If an innocent is hit during spray & pray shootings, the potential for death is less, the ammo is cheaper for practice use, the officers do not have to count on accuracy and they can mostly retain the one man police car since each officer will have about 60 rounds (which is about the same as five officers had back in the 20's). Add in the radios now carried, faster response times and the smaller 9mm begins to make sense in terms of cost.

Where the cost factor is not so important, the .40 S&W or .45acp will be commonly found.

I know of three depts in LA currently using the .45acp and one that has it under study. Never in my life has the .45acp been used as standard issue before now.

 

[scooter123]

I find these caliber threads to be amusing at times. Lets be honest, the 45 ACP is a handgun round with moderate power that uses a large heavy bullet, it's not the instant man, or bear, stopper some believe it to be. And it won't cut a man in half at 10 yards no matter what type of bullet you use, to do that you need something like an RPG.

Hey, I like the 45 ACP, it's relatively soft shooting and easy to master in controlled rapid fire shooting. Probably the same reasons that the Marine Corp has such a fondness for the caliber. However, in bulk it is somewhat heavy and it's size does limit magazine capacity.

The simple truth is that how you shoot is a lot more critical in terms of stopping an assailant than the caliber you carry. It always has been and probably always will be because I really don't see computer guided ammunition ever being allowed in civilian hands if it ever makes it off the movie screen.

 

[packinaglock]

I kind of see it like: if your standing in the middle of the road would you rather get hit by an F150 at 100 mph (9mm) or a dump truck at 50 mph (.45), both are going to kill ya.

 

[oldman45]

Hey, I like the 45 ACP, it's relatively soft shooting and easy to master in controlled rapid fire shooting. Probably the same reasons that the Marine Corp has such a fondness for the caliber. However, in bulk it is somewhat heavy and it's size does limit magazine capacity.

The simple truth is that how you shoot is a lot more critical in terms of stopping an assailant than the caliber you carry. It always has been and probably always will be because I really don't see computer guided ammunition ever being allowed in civilian hands if it ever makes it off the movie screen.

Good post. However you talk about magazine size limitations. All it takes is one bullet of proper caliber that is well placed.

The fact is that people will not take the time to learn their gun. They shoot a few rounds and declare they know how to shoot. They know nothing of proper finger placement, trigger pull, sighting or such. There is a major difference between knowing how to shoot and just pulling the trigger.

 

[oldman45]

I kind of see it like: if your standing in the middle of the road would you rather get hit by an F150 at 100 mph (9mm) or a dump truck at 50 mph (.45), both are going to kill ya.

Technically, the dump truck will do more damage, depending on load, where the point of impact was and the shape of the front end of the dump truck. Also the person cannot be knocked over the top of the dump truck where they can with a F-150.

I have worked a few shootings and read reports on others where someone got hit many, many times with a smaller caliber and was in court within a week.

There was a dealer that wanted to shoot it out with drug agents many years ago. He was sitting in a Cadillac that the agents stopped. He opened fire and they returned fire. He was struck in the upper torso only 19 times out of 60+ rounds fired. He is still living but in jail. This is not a one time event. It has happened all over the country. I am sure there has been someone, somewhere that was hit multiple times with a .45 and lived. But it is an extremely rare event.

The best proof of this is WWII history. It is well documented that the Germans were asking for handguns like the US troops had. They were shooting our troops and the troops were being hit but not incapaciated. The wounded troops would return fire and hit the Germans once and it was either fatal or instantly incapaciated. Our troops were taught to hit the target and they were brave enough to face the enemy head-on.

Or we can ask one if they were going to be shot in the chest area with a small caliber or a .45acp, which would they choose? The larger the caliber, the more damage for drs to repair and the greater chance of not surviving it.

It is also possible for a smaller object travelling at a faster speed to pass entirely through a mass without doing any real damage while inside.

It is just as possible for a larger object to impact and be stopped by a hard mass such as bone.
Can a .22 or 9mm, .380 or what ever kill? Heck yes. But studies show these calibers are not as effective. Studies also show people do not take the time to learn to be comfortable with a .45acp.

 

[jlrhiner]

Let's play a game;

You KNOW that once you go outside your door you are going to confront a cracked up ex-lineman and have to defend yourself with deadly force. NO WAY to avoid it.

Laying on your table are three handguns, your only choices.

Your choice of platforms in .45, .40, or 9mm.

Which one goes out the door with you?

 

[oldman45]

Let's play a game;

You KNOW that once you go outside your door you are going to confront a cracked up ex-lineman and have to defend yourself with deadly force. NO WAY to avoid it.

Laying on your table are three handguns, your only choices.

Your choice of platforms in .45, .40, or 9mm.

Which one goes out the door with you?

I love the analogy. But if I know I am going to face something where deadly force is needed, I ain't going there.

A few years ago, I had to serve papers on a rough individual. Each attempt by the Marshal's Office and the Sheriff's Dept were met with vicious dogs in a fenced yard. The papers went unserved for weeks and time was running out. I got the job of serving them. nobody told me about the dogs. The man met me at the door and then turned the dogs loose. I shot one and a City Marshal that was nice enough to meet me there shot the other. From that date on, if I knew I was going to face vicious dogs or those that was known as a runner, then someone else could do the work. I am too old for fights, foot chases and dog bites.

 

[tom turner]

Let's play a game;

You KNOW that once you go outside your door you are going to confront a cracked up ex-lineman and have to defend yourself with deadly force. NO WAY to avoid it.

Laying on your table are three handguns, your only choices.

Your choice of platforms in .45, .40, or 9mm.

Which one goes out the door with you?

I've faced this type scenario a few times, so that thought process suddenly became razor sharp in my mind each time. The 9mm, .40 S&W, .38 Spl., and .357s (plus the .44 mags) stayed behind . . . and I went to the source of a possible threat with a .45ACP in my hand.

Additionally, I went to the sound with the one that's been "match-proven" winner scores of times through the years in my hands . . . the one I consistently shoot the fastest and the best . . .

. . . my chopped barrel, custom 25-2 revolver. The full-sized high cap Para and the high dollar Kimber 1911 take a definite backseat to this time-tested and trusted "old friend" . . .

 

[PALADIN85020]

I've faced this type scenario a few times, so that thought process suddenly became razor sharp in my mind each time. The 9mm, .40 S&W, .38 Spl., and .357s (plus the .44 mags) stayed behind . . . and I went to the source of a possible threat with a .45ACP in my hand.

Additionally, I went to the sound with the one that's been "match-proven" winner scores of times through the years in my hands . . . the one I consistently shoot the fastest and the best . . .

. . . my chopped barrel, custom 25-2 revolver. The full-sized high cap Para and the high dollar Kimber 1911 take a definite backseat to this time-tested and trusted "old friend" . . .

An old Master Sergeant once told me that looking down the bore of a .45 is like looking into the mouth of the Holland Tunnel. You can't discount the intimidation factor, either!

John

 

[Frailer]

Let's play a game;

You KNOW that once you go outside your door you are going to confront a cracked up ex-lineman and have to defend yourself with deadly force. NO WAY to avoid it.

Laying on your table are three handguns, your only choices.

Your choice of platforms in .45, .40, or 9mm.

Which one goes out the door with you?

Assuming the three guns are full-size service pistols?

The 9mm.

Why? Because the only way I'm stopping a hyped-up giant with a handgun is with a CNS shot. Knowing how hard it is to hit a small, moving target, I want as many chances to hit as possible.

 

[NKJ nut]

Let's play a game;

You KNOW that once you go outside your door you are going to confront a cracked up ex-lineman and have to defend yourself with deadly force. NO WAY to avoid it.

Laying on your table are three handguns, your only choices.

Your choice of platforms in .45, .40, or 9mm.

Which one goes out the door with you?

I can't imagine why three loaded handguns would be laying on my table but if there were, I'd just leave them laying there since I already wear either a SIG P220 .45 or a 9 em em Glock 19 on my belt every day. I wouldn't draw the pistol anyway until after I had showered Mr. Bad with 60 buckshot pellets from one of these:

Meanwhile my wife would break out some really heavy duty hardware and call nine eleven, for an AM-lance for those shot and those about to be shot.

 

[jlrhiner]

Yes, yes, I have a howitzer in my backyard. The scenario is as described. No shotguns, no rifles, no spoons or small atomic devices. Don't assume they are full size service pistols.

Your choice is ANY platform in the three choice calibers. (you like Hi-cap guns? They make all three calibers in 14 rd plus choices)

You can't hide in the closet or under the bed. It's going down right now AND you HAVE to go thru the door.

What caliber goes out the door with you?

 

[max]

Size, power, controllability, etc. the 45 is hard to beat.

 

[jlrhiner]

BTW NKJ, what are the specs on that upper A-5? Is that a NFA gun?

 

[oldman45]

I can't imagine why three loaded handguns would be laying on my table but if there were, I'd just leave them laying there since I already wear either a SIG P220 .45 or a 9 em em Glock 19 on my belt every day. I wouldn't draw the pistol anyway until after I had showered Mr. Bad with 60 buckshot pellets from one of these:

Meanwhile my wife would break out some really heavy duty hardware and call nine eleven, for an AM-lance for those shot and those about to be shot.

Is that a Browning Auto 5 with a short barrel?

 

[tom turner]

Hi Frailer,

Hope you are well, and I say my following reply with respect . . .

If you have time-tested the 9mm theory on "stressful" handgun matches (preferably steel matches) against the clock against multiple small targets at varying distances . . . and you've proven that the 9mm is best for you, then it is great . . . for you. For the vast majority of casual, yet experienced shooters though, I do not believe this will be the case.

Many years of shooting handgun competitions such as this, and keeping meticulous records of my results (and others I shoot against) have really opened my eyes in this matter!

I strongly suggest that all handgunners shoot the "fast and furious steel matches" in their area ASAP, if they haven't already. The revelations may save many lives of the "good guys" like us, as well as save innocent lives in case we are involved in a hostile defense situation!!!

MY FINDINGS . . .

1. Unlike the gun mags write (who make their money reviewing latest and greatest bottom feeders that companies are advertising in these same magazines) . . . the average scores, in minutes/seconds to hit all the total targets of multiple stage steel matches fired . . . is HIGHER amongst the shooters of automatics vs the scores shot with double action revolvers!!!

2. Most competitors of autos have never mastered the skill of shooting smooth, double action revolvers (and thus don't compete with both autos AND revolvers), so they don't know what I found out next . . .

3. Revolvers have the fastest times . . . unless a match calls for multiple reloads against many, many targets. HOWEVER . . . no one I know will have multiple mags hanging out in weird ways (like they wear during a match) when they are wearing civilian clothes! LOL

CASE IN FACT . . .

I shot four classes of handguns last weekend in an area steel match.

- There are four different stages, with four different set ups of steel targets to engage. Each stage involves FIVE steel targets, with the last being the "stop plate."

- There is no limit to the ammo one can load up and have ready to fire, so in theory the high cap 9mm autos with their wimpy recoil and fast recovery times, SHOULD win. WRONG!!!

- Each competitor shoots each stage FIVE times, and the slowest score is thrown out. A total of 100 steel targets are engaged. A revolver shooter can ONLY miss once before needing to reload.

- In THEORY this should slow the revolver shooters down, of course . . . and thus the revolver classes should logically have slower winning AND slower average times for all shooters vs. the auto competitors. The results though, in the aggregate time required to hit all 100 targets . . . are much different! Please read on . . .

- Several competitors, myself included, shoot both revolver AND automatic classes . . . and we've learned the truth a long, long time ago . . .

LAST WEEKEND'S RESULTS . . .

- Winning Revolver aggregate time score (me): 83.95 seconds.
I shot no more than six rounds to get the job done each time, of course. BTW, I didn't use my moon-clipped 25-2. I'd decided to shoot guns that were OLDER than me that day (I'm 60), so I took along a nice S&W M&P .38 Special, made in 1950 . . . and didn't even take a speed loader for it!
The slowest revolver score in the match (shot by a seasoned shooter/hunter/competitor, age 20, with a new seven-shot 686 racegun): 94.30
He only brought 120 rounds to the match . . . and I loaned him some more in case he needed them.

- Winning Production Auto CF score (not me): 100.31 seconds
My score, shot with my 9mm Browning "high cap:" 135.30 seconds . . . yep, I sprayed and prayed like most do when shooting a high cap under stress . . . and still placed THIRD! Frankly, I was shocked to miss as I did with this gun. Then again, a Browning trigger is no match for the buttery-smooth S&W revolver triggers.
Slowest auto score: 236.5 seconds! This person shot a LOT of errant shots too!

BTW, all but FIVE auto shooters hit all the plates in times TWICE as slow as my winning revolver time. They shot a LOT more than 100 rounds too!!!

So much for high cap guns getting the job done quickly! Lots of high dollar, custom bottom feeders at this match too.

I've learned, for me and many other experienced shooters, that shooting smooth double action revolvers prevents "milking" the guns (and otherwise jerking and forcing off errant shots) like is done on autos that causes so many misses "at speed." Mastering a smooth double action revolver pull insures a steady and perfect trigger pull that puts the rounds dead on target in the fastest time . . . and with the least amount of errant bullets flying through the air that can hit innocent targets and thus put one in jail for negligent homicide convictions. We are responsible for every round we shoot.

Again, your results may vary . . . and surely the top regional and national competitors are generally a tad faster with autos . . . but again, they rarely miss, for to miss is to lose at any level and type of handgun shooting.

Food for thought . . .

 

[NKJ nut]

BTW NKJ, what are the specs on that upper A-5? Is that a NFA gun?

14" bbl. Stock shortened to 12.5". Yes to the NFA.

 

[NKJ nut]

Is that a Browning Auto 5 with a short barrel?

One with a 14 inch bbl. one with an 18 inch. Stocks shortened on both. No collector items were harmed in these conversions as both guns had already been refinished before I started with them. The lower gun has a Simmons rib on it. The top one had a poly choke on it. There's a thread about these guns on this forum. It's way back though.

 

[Fishslayer]

Good grief. Is this thread still alive?

You guys & your silly caliber debates....

I say....