deadin
US Veteran
No Kidding!!! I guess that's progress of a sort. Now all we just have to convince you it's not a S&W of any kind.
1870 America model 3 Smith & Wesson hand Eject 44 cal 2 digit serial number
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No Kidding!!! I guess that's progress of a sort. Now all we just have to convince you it's not a S&W of any kind.
OP
junkking4fun
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it sucks when all the 100 years of so called experts say copy just because they have not seen something, guess they dont want to try and learn new things or atleast try. there is more S&W guns out there that are not in books, or have not been seen in 140 years, so I guess when they come up they are copies, I have asked for anyone to show me the exact copy and thay cant, thats all I have to say, the real experts when they see it they will know if it is real or copy, seems by the photos the so called experts on here cant tell. I am In Texas is there any real cowboy experts that knows about S&W let me know
Thanks
Thanks
deadin
US Veteran
You really don't listen or understand what we have been saying. There may not be another example of your "gun".
It may be unique, but that doesn't make it a S&W and it sure doesn't make it worth anything. You seem to be asking us to prove it isn't a S&W. How about you proving it is.
I'm done wasting my time. You win. It's obviously a super rare S&W Prototype and you need to contact the National Firearms Museum in Fairfax VA. I'm sure the director (who also is a member here. I'm surprised he hasn't made you an offer all ready) will gladly pay you thousands and thousands of dollars for it. Let us know when it is going on display so we can go bask in its presence.
<barf>
It may be unique, but that doesn't make it a S&W and it sure doesn't make it worth anything. You seem to be asking us to prove it isn't a S&W. How about you proving it is.
I'm done wasting my time. You win. It's obviously a super rare S&W Prototype and you need to contact the National Firearms Museum in Fairfax VA. I'm sure the director (who also is a member here. I'm surprised he hasn't made you an offer all ready) will gladly pay you thousands and thousands of dollars for it. Let us know when it is going on display so we can go bask in its presence.
<barf>
OP
junkking4fun
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I myself am not sure if it is real or copy , I thought thats what this forum was for to get info, but I guess I was wrong , all I can do is give the info that is on the gun a photos, and it matches the info S&W has on page 98 of the Standard catalog of Smith & Wesson 3rd Edition if they would have photos of the inside frame and trigger ***, I bet they are crudly made like this one, Thanks
The S&W experts you seek already have accounts on this very forum. I will nearly guarantee that you wont find a legitimate expert to verify your gun as original. Also, why did the ejector pictures disappear from the forum after I lead you to the Supica book? Since you are in Texas, I guarantee this is a Spanish gun that was beat to hell and kept going in Chihuahua for a local vaquero by a village blacksmith long past its usual life span, then sold to an unsuspecting gringo, who brought it back to the USA. Maybe Pancho Villa dropped it on one of his trips to El Paso. I also give up and wish you luck!
OP
junkking4fun
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I didnt take any photos off, and you are rude, and very unprofessional
Dragon88
Member
This thread was an interesting read. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but...
To the OP, enjoy your "ultra rare S&W prototype". You'll have "real cowboys" lining up at your door to buy it once that S&W expert authenticates it for you.
To the OP, enjoy your "ultra rare S&W prototype". You'll have "real cowboys" lining up at your door to buy it once that S&W expert authenticates it for you.
OP
junkking4fun
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This thread was an interesting read. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but...
To the OP, enjoy your "ultra rare S&W prototype". You'll have "real cowboys" lining up at your door to buy it once that S&W expert authenticates it for you.
I am not sure who pissed in your wheeties today, I know there is some down to earth collectors on here that do care,
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junkking4fun;
I replied earlier to your post, but after the replies from other Forum members and you I think another message is in order.
You asked a perfectly legitimate question - is the gun you have an 1870 American (or model 3, or Schofield) with a 2-digit serial number? The other Forum members, some of whom I know personally as 50 + year S & W collectors, and you as well came to the conclusion that it is not.
You then asked if it might be a prototype or other rare factory variation. The same Forum members that said it is not a factory gun stated, based on the evidence provided, that it is not wholly an S & W product; despite this, you believe it to be so based on the barrel stampings and apparently without other supporting evidence.
May I offer two suggestions? Since you have digital photos available, please post clear views of the gun - both sides, top/bottom/front/back, a closeup of the ejector rod and hinge - on a message. If you click Post Reply under the last message, then Manage Attachments, a smaller window will open where you can link the photos from your computer. One of us can then call attention to the photos to the S & W factory historian when he is available to review them.
Since you appear to have the desire to learn more about S & Ws, may I also suggest you attend the Tulsa Arms show meeting of the Collector's Association next month? You will have perhaps 1000 years of collecting experience in one room, and you can be certain if your gun is a factory product that someone will ID it for you, by examining it in person and pointing out why it is or is not a true S & W. These are not the "so-called experts" (some of whom, by the way, have already given you their opinion here) - these are THE experts. They will gladly give you their unbiased opinion - whether you decide to accept it is up to you.
If you are unwilling to believe the opinion of the factory historian, or that of collectors who have spent their adult lives collecting and learning about S & W products who will examine the gun with you, I'm not sure we can be of any additional help.
I replied earlier to your post, but after the replies from other Forum members and you I think another message is in order.
You asked a perfectly legitimate question - is the gun you have an 1870 American (or model 3, or Schofield) with a 2-digit serial number? The other Forum members, some of whom I know personally as 50 + year S & W collectors, and you as well came to the conclusion that it is not.
You then asked if it might be a prototype or other rare factory variation. The same Forum members that said it is not a factory gun stated, based on the evidence provided, that it is not wholly an S & W product; despite this, you believe it to be so based on the barrel stampings and apparently without other supporting evidence.
May I offer two suggestions? Since you have digital photos available, please post clear views of the gun - both sides, top/bottom/front/back, a closeup of the ejector rod and hinge - on a message. If you click Post Reply under the last message, then Manage Attachments, a smaller window will open where you can link the photos from your computer. One of us can then call attention to the photos to the S & W factory historian when he is available to review them.
Since you appear to have the desire to learn more about S & Ws, may I also suggest you attend the Tulsa Arms show meeting of the Collector's Association next month? You will have perhaps 1000 years of collecting experience in one room, and you can be certain if your gun is a factory product that someone will ID it for you, by examining it in person and pointing out why it is or is not a true S & W. These are not the "so-called experts" (some of whom, by the way, have already given you their opinion here) - these are THE experts. They will gladly give you their unbiased opinion - whether you decide to accept it is up to you.
If you are unwilling to believe the opinion of the factory historian, or that of collectors who have spent their adult lives collecting and learning about S & W products who will examine the gun with you, I'm not sure we can be of any additional help.
Duaine;
You made a good choice, coming to this forum to ask the opinions of those who have been exposed to many Smith & Wesson guns for many years. What I don't understand is why you seem so obdurate in refusing to accept those very opinions you have sought. Is it simply that they weren't what you wanted to hear? I myself have only been studying guns for a trifle over 50 yrs, but have had a goodly number of pieces pass thru my hands, new and old, spiffy and rusty, whole and in pieces, authentic and knockoff. Your gun is quite clearly a foreign-made copy of the Smith & Wesson #3, and not a particularly good quality one at that. If that wasn't what you needed to hear, then shucks, junk happens ! I just hope you'll continue to enjoy this edifying hobby, and please let us know if you get any more info on your breaktop.
Larry
You made a good choice, coming to this forum to ask the opinions of those who have been exposed to many Smith & Wesson guns for many years. What I don't understand is why you seem so obdurate in refusing to accept those very opinions you have sought. Is it simply that they weren't what you wanted to hear? I myself have only been studying guns for a trifle over 50 yrs, but have had a goodly number of pieces pass thru my hands, new and old, spiffy and rusty, whole and in pieces, authentic and knockoff. Your gun is quite clearly a foreign-made copy of the Smith & Wesson #3, and not a particularly good quality one at that. If that wasn't what you needed to hear, then shucks, junk happens ! I just hope you'll continue to enjoy this edifying hobby, and please let us know if you get any more info on your breaktop.
Larry
Duaine,
You had requested a photo of the guts of a Model 3 American.
This picture is from a Model 3 that was shipped in 1872. You will notice that the workings shown here do not match your revolver.
Also, S&W used 3 screws to attach the sideplate on all their hoglegs, yours does not.
Lastly, if memory serves me correctly, no S&W Americans have number stamps on hammer.
You had requested a photo of the guts of a Model 3 American.
This picture is from a Model 3 that was shipped in 1872. You will notice that the workings shown here do not match your revolver.
Also, S&W used 3 screws to attach the sideplate on all their hoglegs, yours does not.
Lastly, if memory serves me correctly, no S&W Americans have number stamps on hammer.
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handejector
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Isn't this fun?
I am reminded of one of my favorite cliches-
"Let me tell you a question."
I am reminded of one of my favorite cliches-
"Let me tell you a question."
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The answer is pretty obvious by now
Its always funny how someone who admitted knows little to nothing about S&Ws somehow always has a gun that the experts are wrong about.
Its also amazing how these rare collectibles end up in the hands of those who claim to "know very little" or "just started out..." or "I'm not sure, but I think its a...." instead of the lifelong collectors.
How to tell the gun posted by Duaine is a fake or copy?
S&W craftsmanship!
If S&W made anything like that back then, they would have surely went out of business. Just because there are prototype guns, does not mean they have to look like they're poorly manufactured. Prototypes often do lack features of later guns, but "quality" isn't a feature, if its a company like S&W, the quality will be seen in prototype and regular production. Keep in mind, they had Colt to compete with back then, you know, the pony guns? First percussion revolver, big name, famous, etc?
Here's a key point that you must first understand:
Any prototype S&W is a S&W and would therefor resemble a S&W.
To find out what that means, you will have to hold and examine many S&Ws to appreciate the fine attention to detail, the innovation, and the pride put into each individual gun, even a S&W prototype and perhaps then, you will see the S&W through the trees.
Not really - Colts hand ejector historically replaced these self eject guns, not the other way around. This self eject technology was not shared by Colt. When Colt came out with the DA swing out cylinder revolvers, with hand ejectors, S&W soon followed suit, and decades later, we have today's revolvers.
S&W also did not have to "keep up" because there were advantages to both designs. These are things you can't learn from watching a John Wayne movie.
Open minded that we were all wrong and you were somehow right? Yea, you were, in that regard.
Its always funny how someone who admitted knows little to nothing about S&Ws somehow always has a gun that the experts are wrong about.
Its also amazing how these rare collectibles end up in the hands of those who claim to "know very little" or "just started out..." or "I'm not sure, but I think its a...." instead of the lifelong collectors.
How to tell the gun posted by Duaine is a fake or copy?
S&W craftsmanship!
If S&W made anything like that back then, they would have surely went out of business. Just because there are prototype guns, does not mean they have to look like they're poorly manufactured. Prototypes often do lack features of later guns, but "quality" isn't a feature, if its a company like S&W, the quality will be seen in prototype and regular production. Keep in mind, they had Colt to compete with back then, you know, the pony guns? First percussion revolver, big name, famous, etc?
Here's a key point that you must first understand:
Any prototype S&W is a S&W and would therefor resemble a S&W.
To find out what that means, you will have to hold and examine many S&Ws to appreciate the fine attention to detail, the innovation, and the pride put into each individual gun, even a S&W prototype and perhaps then, you will see the S&W through the trees.
Not really - Colts hand ejector historically replaced these self eject guns, not the other way around. This self eject technology was not shared by Colt. When Colt came out with the DA swing out cylinder revolvers, with hand ejectors, S&W soon followed suit, and decades later, we have today's revolvers.
S&W also did not have to "keep up" because there were advantages to both designs. These are things you can't learn from watching a John Wayne movie.
Open minded that we were all wrong and you were somehow right? Yea, you were, in that regard.
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Ballarat
Member
Ed is correct in every detail. The gun would have had an 8 inch barrel, where is the rest of the barrel. It aint no Smith for sure. There are just so many things wrong with the piece. The barrel latch for starters, That lump of swinging metal under the barrel??? Serial and assy number data have not been provided. Poster, wake-up to yourself its not worth a thing and it aint a S&W for sure. The barrel legend seems to fit that piece, but not in reality. Your having yourself on. Buy The book and read. Pate Smith & Wesson American model.
You can lead a horse to water, but you sure as hell cant make him drink.
S&W never made a 45 cal until the Schofield and that was way after 1870 mate.
You can lead a horse to water, but you sure as hell cant make him drink.
S&W never made a 45 cal until the Schofield and that was way after 1870 mate.
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Memphis
Member
Wow, what an interesting thread, and entertaining. If the value of that rascal is between 150 and 7200, heck on the 7200, take the $150 and "run Forrest"!!
But it is interesting reading.
Roger
But it is interesting reading.
Roger
44 special Dave
Member
I found this thread very interesting. Asks a question then proceeds to basically argue with all the responders.
What I found most interesting is that he "fired" the gun with 44s but took the lead out for safety??? And the shells were loose?
Ok, why would you fire something without being sure what you had? Especially if you were convinced it was a prototype.
Ah the second amendment. It's great but does bestow the right on just about anybody....oops I meant just about everyone.
Dave
What I found most interesting is that he "fired" the gun with 44s but took the lead out for safety??? And the shells were loose?
Ok, why would you fire something without being sure what you had? Especially if you were convinced it was a prototype.
Ah the second amendment. It's great but does bestow the right on just about anybody....oops I meant just about everyone.
Dave
I've used case fire forming to help ID the caliber of firearms before, though never with a black powder firearm nor one so rough as this. However by removing the projectile all that was proved was that the mainspring and firing pin were functional. Though I suspect removing the projectile was a wise precaution in this case.
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