Open carry in TN for non recidents

[redneckemt]

By "securing you" you mean detain them? So you are going to detain (dang near the same as arrest) someone because they didn't tell you they had a firearm on them, when they had no legal requirement to do so?


False Arrest? Police Harrassment?

 

[redlevel]

Like stated before, in TN you can buy/ sell weapons without registering the transaction. If I remove the weapon from the person I check the weapon for stolen. I would think people would appreciate that.

Then you would be wrong. I ask again, how about if I'm wearing a $5000 watch? It also might be stolen. The fact that my gun or my watch might be stolen does not amount to reasonable suspicion. What you are doing is making a fishing expedition, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is patently unconstitutional for you to conduct a search, which is what running the numbers is, without reasonable suspicion.

Did you look at the Georgia State Supreme Court case I linked to? If there are many officers in TN conducting fishing expeditions like you describe, I would imagine something like this might soon make its way through the TN courts. We have a great advocate in Georgia in GeorgiaCarry.org. Is there a state organization such as that in TN? It sounds like one is needed.

 

[redlevel]

It is not required in TN to advise the officer that you have a HGP, but if the officer sees the gun and has not been advised that you have it or a permit, they will probably respond by securing you and the weapon till more information is learned.

By "securing you" you mean detain them? So you are going to detain (dang near the same as arrest) someone because they didn't tell you they had a firearm on them, when they had no legal requirement to do so?


False Arrest? Police Harrassment?

I missed that. You keep getting deeper and deeper.
I have eight firearms in my truck now. If you stopped me, would you run all of them? I don't know about TN, but in GA there is no permit required to have a handgun or long gun in a vehicle. In Georgia, an officer would have no more right to detain me (secure?) me for having the weapons than he would if I had a load of apples.

 

[rbmac52]

Most states that issue concealed handgun licenses also allow for an officer to disarm a licensee when the officer "reasonably" believes it is necessary for the safety of him/herself, the licensee, or others. This is good law.

However, there is no blanket authority under the law to disarm a licensee because of an officer's "gut feelings" or "officer safety practice." To remove a handgun from a licensee as a matter of routine is not authorized under the law. There must also be present those "reasonable" factors alluded to above (i.e. high crime area, licensee acting suspiciously, is intoxicated, evidence of a crime in progress/being committed, etc.).

Also, running licensee handgun serial numbers for any reason without a warrant, permission, or sufficient probable cause under the law is an illegal search.

 

[woodsltc]

Most on this forum are very much "pro" LEO and and many are LEO's ....but the fact is no LEO should ever take advantage of a situation "just because you can" because of the letter of the law.

If you are on a "power trip" and are into taking someone's weapon just because the statutes say you can....then you are not the kind of person we need in law enforcement. In fact you are the kind of person that turns law-abidding citizens against LEO's.

Use common sense....what I've read from the initial comments from J. Walton and oldsfsp (you both tried to back-off of it later) is you make/made it a common practice to commandeer someones firearm, unloading it and checking to see if it was stolen WITHOUT ANY PROBABLE CAUSE ...your only justification was because you could.

That says you are a bully, who's on a power trip to me, and I don't want my tax dollars paying for your employment.

I would do everything possible to make sure you were removed from the ranks of law enforcement in my area if you did this stunt to me.

Don

 

[J.Wal]

Ok, I am done. I would have no problem if a officer treated me the way I treat other people. I ain't breaking any laws, I use officer discretion and make sure I make it home to my family.

I will no longer be attempting to defend my position because it is pointless. There will never be a agreement.


J.Wal

 

[rbmac52]

J. Walton

I'd recommend that you go in and see your local prosecutor or district attorney, or a respected defense attorney and tell them about your routine disarming of law abiding citizens carrying concealed and running serial numbers to see if guns are stolen. See what they have to say about your doing so without the requisite "reasonable" standard required by your statute.

If you won't listen to us, maybe you will listen to them.

While you and I are on the same side, I think you have your authority and obligation on this issue all wrong.

 

[Nimble Jack B.]

Count me as another lawfully armed citizen that doesn't inform a LEO -- if not asked in a state that doesn't require it -- and I've been legally carrying for well over a decade in many states.

I believe unnecessarily handling firearms leads to negligent discharges. My main carry is an HK with the factory optional LEM trigger system. It has no safety, no de-cocker and it's always chambered, loaded and concealed on me. At a traffic stop a LEO wouldn't see it anyway.

To me, giving a loaded and chambered round pistol with no safety to anyone is a recipe for disaster for not only them, but me, too. I'm shaking in my shoes right now trying to imagine a LEO removing a chambered round from my HK and emptying the magazine while on the side of the road next standing next to me!

I don't inform now if I'm not asked and I never will. But that's just me and I'm certainly within the law, too, by not announcing I have a firearm...

ETA: I open carry quite a bit, too. I've never been harassed...

 

[redneckemt]

To the OP great news Grundy County is about 300 miles from Memphis the left coast of Tenn. So you shouldn't have problems with the Local Cops.

While it might be legal to open carry in Tenn, most people do try to atleast partial conceal their weapon.

Say you are standing in line at the gas station and some dude comes in to rob the place sees your gun and is standing behind you, might not turn out good, while open carry might be legal, it's not always the best idea.

You could use this as a reason to get a (another) J-Frame... Just pocket carry.

 

[rbmac52]

I don't see any advantage to open carry (unless you're in uniform, of course), even for the sake of convenience. Concealed carry is always best for plain clothes civilians (and plain clothes peace officers, as well). No one needs to know you have a gun at the ready. That's an advantage you want to have on your side. Just my opinion, of course...

 

[woodsltc]

Message to J. Walton and oldafsp

Guys, I just want you to know that I very much support LEO's and enforcement of our laws against the bad guys out there. And I very much want you to safely return to your family everynight/day after your shift.......but that does not come without risk.

The upholding of the pledge you made when you became an officer of the law means you accepted the risk of protecting the freedoms and rights of the general public.

One of those freedoms is "the right to keep and bear arms"........ where I have taken exception,
is that you both have stated as your M-O's (modus operandi)
the fact that you feel you have the right (per "your" interpretation of the Tennessee statutes to without probable cause, detain, disarm, unload the private citizens firearm and check if stolen (again without probable cause). This is not right and is poor judgement ....... I know you want to look out for your own safety, but you took an oath to uphold the rights and laws of the people, you don't "bend" the laws for your own purposes......and yes that may increase the risk to you, but that is what you opted for when you became a law enforcement officer.

My gut feeling is that both of you are and have been good officers of the law and are people that I would gladly call friends if we knew each other personally. I wish both you the best and hope you will be safe. I also hope you will re-evaluate how you interpret "our" rights.

 

[sheriffoconee]

Even the Tennessee Statute requires a REASON to disarm a permitted carrier. To say "it's what we do" or to suggest that word has no meaning in context of the rest of the sentence is a mistake IMO. REASONABLY means a set of facts leading someone to make a conclusion. More precisely, as a noun, the word reason means
"a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action. " As a verb, it means "to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. "
If you work for me, you BETTER have a reason to disarm someone...and not some "it might be stolen" or "officer safety" issue. Those are not reasons, they are conclusions. What lead you to that conclusion???? "Just being armed and I stopped you for a traffic violation, or "I saw the butt of his gun under his shirt" ain't a reason in America, or Tennessee.
Quite frankly, I think it stems from whatever happened on this job when suddenly everyone reached the conclusion that the 1st rule of law enforcement was to go home at the end of your shift, which is a line from a bad movie about a rather unremarkable lawman IMO.
What this job needs is fewer Sean Connery's and more Detective McFaddens.....(read Terry vs Ohio if you don't know who Detective McFadden was...a Terry stop is named after the bandit McFadden caught, which is a shame, it should be a McFadden stop)
I better stop now........but this is a SERIOUS issue in this country....

 

[son-of-a-gun]

I'd like to see an LEO address this. If the answer is no, then why is a gun different?

In Indiana, at least, there is no requirement for a gunshop or pawn shop to run the serial number when purchasing a used gun. There is no requirement for the purchaser at either of those shops to run a serial number check. Likewise with private sellers and gunshows.

If I had a gun stolen from me, possibly the ONLY way I might ever recover it is if an LEO ran serial numbers during routine stops.

Of course, Indiana has no registration requirement either. I do, however, run serial numbers through a nephew LEO for every gun I purchase.

Given the above, I have absolutely no qualms about an LEO running my gun through a check.

BTW, I'm not LEO.

 

[sheriffoconee]

In Indiana, at least, there is no requirement for a gunshop or pawn shop to run the serial number when purchasing a used gun. There is no requirement for the purchaser at either of those shops to run a serial number check. Likewise with private sellers and gunshows.

If I had a gun stolen from me, possibly the ONLY way I might ever recover it is if an LEO ran serial numbers during routine stops.

Of course, Indiana has no registration requirement either. I do, however, run serial numbers through a nephew LEO for every gun I purchase.

Given the above, I have absolutely no qualms about an LEO running my gun through a check.

BTW, I'm not LEO.

I am sure that you, like many people, have no problem whatsoever cooperating and working with LEO's on a day in and day out basis. Georgia, likewise, has no "running the numbers" requirement for buyers of sellers of firearms, and there is no registration, which is as it should be.....
However, the recovery of the occasional stolen firearm does not justify a peace officer acting without consent, or reasonable suspicion, if they choose to run the "numbers" on any citizens firearm, even if they don't mind.
Taking a gun by force or threat of force without reasonable suspicion, then running it on NCIC just because a LEO stops you for a traffic offense, or you carry your gun into Walmart, ain't right...it ain't American. Even if the person doesn't mind, it doesn't make it right.
And yes, I am a LEO, and I have been all my adult life....

 

[redlevel]

If I had a gun stolen from me, possibly the ONLY way I might ever recover it is if an LEO ran serial numbers during routine stops.

Given the above, I have absolutely no qualms about an LEO running my gun through a check.

Another way they could possibly recover it is to go into gun-owners' homes and demand to see the contents of their gun safe. They could then run all the serial numbers and find if any of the guns were stolen. You wouldn't have any qualms about that, would you? After all, if I had a gun stolen, it just might wind up in your safe. Certainly you shouldn't mind giving up your 4th amendment rights on the off chance that the gun that was stolen from me is one you traded for or bought at a gun show.

 

[bharner]

Ok, I am done. I would have no problem if a officer treated me the way I treat other people. I ain't breaking any laws, I use officer discretion and make sure I make it home to my family.

I will no longer be attempting to defend my position because it is pointless. There will never be a agreement.


J.Wal

You may have discretion but I believe the 2nd & 4th amendment would be on the side of any permit holder who decided to pursue your badge.
A hunch may hold up in court against someone who has a large record but by and large permit holders are the most law abiding citizens. We don't want our permits taken away. We also know our rights. If I was disarmed at a traffic stop you would be in court. A hunch would have you being a desk jockey at best. Collecting unemployment if the lawyer is good.

Here in VA I have no obligation to disclose if I am carrying. If I'm walking around at 3am in a shady section of town and an LEO asks for ID I am not obligated to provide it. All I have to do is give him or her my name. Granted, I have respect for most LEOs so I would probably hand them my ID. My father was an LEO for 25 years. I have deep respect for most officers but I've seen too many corrupt 5-Ohs to hand one my gun. Especially because my M&P has no safety and will fire w/o a mag. I don't want to be responsible for them shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[son-of-a-gun]

Another way they could possibly recover it is to go into gun-owners' homes and demand to see the contents of their gun safe.

This is apples and oranges and you know it.

The original premise is that I am stopped by an LEO (don't know the reason till he explains to me), he runs my DL (no objection there), learns I have LTCH and asks if I am armed.

I respond yes and tell him where the gun is located.

He asks to see it and decides to hold it till after he is done with me. Once again, understandable and no objection from me. I doubt I'll need it during the stop.

He runs the serial number while the gun is in his possession.

Like I said, apples and oranges.

 

[son-of-a-gun]

I am sure that you, like many people, have no problem whatsoever cooperating and working with LEO's on a day in and day out basis. Georgia, likewise, has no "running the numbers" requirement for buyers of sellers of firearms, and there is no registration, which is as it should be.....
However, the recovery of the occasional stolen firearm does not justify a peace officer acting without consent, or reasonable suspicion, if they choose to run the "numbers" on any citizens firearm, even if they don't mind.
Taking a gun by force or threat of force without reasonable suspicion, then running it on NCIC just because a LEO stops you for a traffic offense, or you carry your gun into Walmart, ain't right...it ain't American. Even if the person doesn't mind, it doesn't make it right.
And yes, I am a LEO, and I have been all my adult life....

This is why I enjoy this forum.

Everyday is a learning experience and helps me to rationalize what I will and will not tolerate.

For now, I'll tolerate the serial number checks simply for the reason I previously stated.

 

[sheriffoconee]

This is why I enjoy this forum.

Everyday is a learning experience and helps me to rationalize what I will and will not tolerate.

For now, I'll tolerate the serial number checks simply for the reason I previously stated.

Thank you. As I said, you can choose to give your consent to have your gun taken and checked against whatever system they choose to run it through. However, that consent should be clearly given, and you should know you can withdraw that consent at any time. However, if they TAKE IT, they should have reasonable suspicion that you are now presently dangerous, a suspect that has committed a crime, or a reason to believe you are about to commit a crime.

 

[redlevel]

I hate to seem like I'm beating a dead horse, but to quote Sheriff Berry, 'this is a SERIOUS issue in this country.'

Tennessee Code Annotated
39-17-1351

(t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

As the good Sheriff pointed out, the code section does not give you the authority to disarm a citizen without a reason. I would just bet that a court would agree that the mere possession of a firearm isn't sufficient reason. GA courts have already ruled this exact point.

In a state such as TN, where firearms are not registered, I am obligated to check weapons to insure that they are not stolen or have been used in the commission of a crime.

No sir. What you are obligated to do is maintain law and order and enforce laws without violating citizens' Constitutional rights. When you run my legally owned, legally carried weapon without any reason other than I have it in my possession and "it might be stolen," then you are in gross violation of my 4th amendment rights.

but if the officer sees the gun and has not been advised that you have it or a permit, they will probably respond by securing you and the weapon till more information is learned.

Maybe the most disturbing statement in the whole thread. "He has a gun. He must be a criminal. Better prone him out and cuff him." This happens with some regularity in at least one Georgia jurisdiction.

Given the above, I have absolutely no qualms about an LEO running my gun through a check.

For now, I'll tolerate the serial number checks simply for the reason I previously stated.

You may be willing to give up your Constitutional rights. I am not. I will never, ever consent to an illegal search willingly.