BuckeyeChuck
Member
As a father of three young sons, I much prefer this method of personnel acquisition to its alternative.
Military Discipline
- Thread starter kudzu3
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As a father of three young sons, I much prefer this method of personnel acquisition to its alternative.
Today's current Military dress appearance I don't care for nor the current uniform apperance of LEO.
As an "Old Timer" I was informed that these uniforms were for comfort.
I was comfortble wearing the "Old Fashion" Military Uniforms and the "Old Fashion" LEO Uniforms.
What ever became of "Look Sharp, Be Sharp, Be Identified as Sharp/Profession"??
As an "Old Timer" I was informed that these uniforms were for comfort.
I was comfortble wearing the "Old Fashion" Military Uniforms and the "Old Fashion" LEO Uniforms.
What ever became of "Look Sharp, Be Sharp, Be Identified as Sharp/Profession"??
Am I the only one who remembers the 1973-1976 era when kids who had been caught with a joint were offered the choice by the judge to "Either enlist or I'll send yer arse to jail for 3-5 years!"
Then they were sent to S.E. Asia where the stuff grew wild
Two of my pot smoking buddies came back full blown smack addicts ....
It is a much better system now than it was 35 years ago regardless of the clothing.
Then they were sent to S.E. Asia where the stuff grew wild
Two of my pot smoking buddies came back full blown smack addicts ....
It is a much better system now than it was 35 years ago regardless of the clothing.
mball
Member
Back in '06-'07 I did a job in Columbus, Ga. The gun shop/indoor range I went to was often full of young men from Ft. Benning. They seemed to have a lot of tattoo art and some had an earring.
After awhile we started to see each other regularly. We shot together and talked guns and life. I was pleased to discover these boys were all respectful and passionate about what they were doing. I would have been proud if any one of them had been my son. I hope they all got home.
Mike
After awhile we started to see each other regularly. We shot together and talked guns and life. I was pleased to discover these boys were all respectful and passionate about what they were doing. I would have been proud if any one of them had been my son. I hope they all got home.
Mike
BLACKHAWKNJ
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I joined the Army in 1967, you were authorized to wear fatigues off post only when on duty or going to and from your quarters, otherwise it was either the Class As of Khakis, depending on the season and local uniform regs or civvies when authorized. Going on leave it was Class As or Khakis only. I note the BDUs and now the ACUs with roughside out leather boots convey a "macho" image-and it's easier to hide a gut or a sloppy figure with them. I live not far from the HQ of the New Jersey National Guard, I derive a certain wry satisfaction from seeing people who hold desk jobs trying to be "macho"-reminds me of the old trick of removing the band from the saucer cap to achieve the "50 mission crush" look. I dislike berets for everybody-same thing, plus they're totally impractical.
One E-7 I knew in the Reserves in the 1990s left AD as an E-6 when a bitter divorce made him a custodial father and he decided his son needed a more stable home life. He said of many of his active fellow soldiers that for too many of them "It's just a job.", too many enlisted for the medical and family benefits for their dependents. Several AF types told me in the 1990s the Air Force became very "chicken----" and I have met a couple of Navy types who bailed out after 8-12 years because they got fed up with the favoritism shown to female personnel.
One E-7 I knew in the Reserves in the 1990s left AD as an E-6 when a bitter divorce made him a custodial father and he decided his son needed a more stable home life. He said of many of his active fellow soldiers that for too many of them "It's just a job.", too many enlisted for the medical and family benefits for their dependents. Several AF types told me in the 1990s the Air Force became very "chicken----" and I have met a couple of Navy types who bailed out after 8-12 years because they got fed up with the favoritism shown to female personnel.
Shooting Padre
US Veteran
I was in from '66-'70. Air Police, then changed the name to Security Police. As I spent most of my tour as a security troop, my duty uniform was fatigues. And they were sharp! Creases you could cut bread with. All pockets were interior. as all outside pockets had the flaps sewn down for neatness. When one of my sons got married 35 years after my discharge, he was amazed when I spit shined his shoes for him. No patent leather for him. Once neatness is learned, it's never forgotten. I know how to clean my personal quarters too. I felt really hurt when I came back stateside in '68 and found it not prudent to be seen in uniform. I was proud to wear the A.F. Blue. I guess things just change with time. I think probably every generation talks about "the way is was back when". Ahhh, we earned the right, did we not?
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Armyphotog
Member
Well, to me, military discipline and what you wear are two totally different subjects. I was in the very last of the brown shoe Army. Yes, we had discipline. My wife's brother in-law was a Captain around the seventies, and he told me when he got out, "if it was my Dad's Army, or even your Army, I would have stayed in. There is no discipline anymore. Sergeants can't get their men to do anything unless there is an Officer standing behind them. The quality of most enlistees is gone. This was before the volunteer army, so can't speak for what's going on now. But the trend was set, and I know they use waivers to keep their enlistment figures up. That's not good.
Dragon88
Member
I have served twice in Iraq and once in Afghanistan. Here's my take: What happened is two major wars and a Global War on Terror. Service members in tactical units have been deployed over and over in the past 10 years. Practicality becomes more necessary than ceremony and pomp. Our ACU uniforms, while not as sharp as starched shirts and trousers, are utilitarian. Desert boots don't require polishing and are actually usable in the terrain we deploy to. Many soldiers "grow up" in the military as lower enlisted in a deployed environment, where soldiers live together much closer, even with their NCOs and officers. Salutes and "Yes Sir!"s are replaced by interaction on a more personal level. I have no idea what things were like in the 60's and 70's, that's way before my time. This is just my experience in today's Army.
Military bearing is certainly not as sharp as it used to be, and I agree our uniforms don't look very good. But the military has had more important things on it's mind the past decade. As the wars wind down, Commanders and CSMs will start bringing the garrison side of military life back in full force.
All that said, I was in the 82nd for a few years, and I can tell you Drill and Ceremony is alive and well. More than once I stood in formation for hours in the baking Carolina sun, helping to keep that part of military life alive.
Military bearing is certainly not as sharp as it used to be, and I agree our uniforms don't look very good. But the military has had more important things on it's mind the past decade. As the wars wind down, Commanders and CSMs will start bringing the garrison side of military life back in full force.
All that said, I was in the 82nd for a few years, and I can tell you Drill and Ceremony is alive and well. More than once I stood in formation for hours in the baking Carolina sun, helping to keep that part of military life alive.
I still work with some of the Navy's new guys, the E-1 thru E-3 need liberty cards, I thought that was all done untill the last few years.
I agree the BDUs are not kept as nice as we did, the dress uniforms look pretty good. I think the Navy has fallen into the "kinder gentler" mindset.
The SEALs I see are not to talkitive about it. There are a lot of other services coming in...
Yesteryears
I agree the BDUs are not kept as nice as we did, the dress uniforms look pretty good. I think the Navy has fallen into the "kinder gentler" mindset.
The SEALs I see are not to talkitive about it. There are a lot of other services coming in...
Yesteryears
Well, guys when Bill Malden was doing cartoons for the Stars and Stripes he called them:
"Garitroopers".....meaning they were far enough up front of the garrison to not have to wear a tie and be freshly uniformed......
and far enough back behind the enemy lines to have no fear of being shot or shot at.
"Garitroopers".....meaning they were far enough up front of the garrison to not have to wear a tie and be freshly uniformed......
and far enough back behind the enemy lines to have no fear of being shot or shot at.
cass
Member
The lack of discipline is really more of a lack of pride. I noticed it first in klinton's first term of office. He showed total disrespect for all military (the feeling was mutual) and that attitude flowed downhill. If you respect your commander in chief, and he respects you (even in non-election years), the pride is there, and is reflected in not only your dress, but in all your actions. I guess I'm too old-school, but military personnel are the reflection of all America, and should always be at their best.
Read the Title "Military Discipline"
I understood, before I got out, the point made about appearance.
If you are not exacting in your appearance, you have no pride in
your branch of service, and therefore, no pride in yourself.
The excellence in anyone shows up in their very appearance;
individual units of service excel because of that pride. All the training
in the world won't make a fighting unit out of a bunch of slobs. They
just don't have the "spark" that makes them great.
JMHO, TACC1.
I understood, before I got out, the point made about appearance.
If you are not exacting in your appearance, you have no pride in
your branch of service, and therefore, no pride in yourself.
The excellence in anyone shows up in their very appearance;
individual units of service excel because of that pride. All the training
in the world won't make a fighting unit out of a bunch of slobs. They
just don't have the "spark" that makes them great.
JMHO, TACC1.
I was a USAF troop from 1966-1970. A C-130 engine mechanic for 4 years. I traveled as far east as Italy and as far west as RVN. Our duty dress was 60's era green fatigues. Washed, starched and pressed. No off base wear of fatigues was allowed unless driving to or from your off base quarters.
Black jump boots or the newer "Chuka" boots were allowed, but were shined. We reported for roll call in the hanger every morning at 7am, stood that formation and then reported to our work areas. Depending on how "remote" our work area was on the base, some of us would change into coveralls and "shop / working boots". My work area on an engine runup test stand could get pretty grimey at times with engine oil and prop. hyd. oil. We wouldn't think of leaving the work area in that dress though.
I must agree that todays service members are some of the best the USA has seen, but I dislike seeing the BDU or whatever worn in a non-work / non-combat environment.
During the mid to late 60's all AF troops who held a non-mechanical job wore 1505's or class A blues. Off duty it was almost anything we wanted to wear. I don't remember any restrictions. Maybe on-base, BX, Commisary etc.
One major difference I see today is the high and tight hair cuts worn by many. We tended to look more like civilians when out of uniform, but would get hammered if we strayed too far from regulation.
LTC
Sgt. USAF, 1966-1970
Black jump boots or the newer "Chuka" boots were allowed, but were shined. We reported for roll call in the hanger every morning at 7am, stood that formation and then reported to our work areas. Depending on how "remote" our work area was on the base, some of us would change into coveralls and "shop / working boots". My work area on an engine runup test stand could get pretty grimey at times with engine oil and prop. hyd. oil. We wouldn't think of leaving the work area in that dress though.
I must agree that todays service members are some of the best the USA has seen, but I dislike seeing the BDU or whatever worn in a non-work / non-combat environment.
During the mid to late 60's all AF troops who held a non-mechanical job wore 1505's or class A blues. Off duty it was almost anything we wanted to wear. I don't remember any restrictions. Maybe on-base, BX, Commisary etc.
One major difference I see today is the high and tight hair cuts worn by many. We tended to look more like civilians when out of uniform, but would get hammered if we strayed too far from regulation.
LTC
Sgt. USAF, 1966-1970
I think so too. Every time I go to one of the military bases here, EVERYBODY is an E-7 or above with a beer belly! I am not the only one that see's this either.
bloo
Member
By today's standards most of my outfit wouldn't be allowed to enlist. I was a high school drop out when I enlisted. Can't do that today. But the military needed bodies and if you didn't enlist you were going to get drafted anyway. By the time we got out of Great Lakes we were men. Still had our flaws but had pride in ourselves and in the Navy. If you messed up you went back to day one and started over. My oldest son put in 12 years in the Navy and just shakes his head over things like how we were stacked like cord wood in the berthing areas of the old Sumner class destroyers. Never had running shoes or "stress cards" in boot camp. Seems they have something called a stress card today. Means if you think your being worked to hard you can show your stress card and they have to ease up on you. Bet the guys at D Day would have liked to have one of those. Seems like Mom and Dad ran a stricter ship at home in the 50's than what the military runs today. Patent leather shoes were meant for little girls to ware with their Easter dresses, not fighting men. I'll shut up now before I start on how every kid that joins the military is a home town hero. We got spit at!
Ted
Ted
datsun40146
Member
Careful on those sweeping remarks...there are MANY E-7 and higher who are in great shape and fit for duty.
[/IMG]
Careful on those sweeping remarks...there are MANY E-7 and higher who are in great shape and fit for duty.
[/IMG]
They must hide when I come around.
Kavinsky
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I cant really say anything definitive on this as I have no personal experence with it but judging by what I saw in the paper about 6 years ago showing a woman in the army qualifying with an M9 despite heavy flinching that showed up in the photo.
I'm kind of wondering if its simply because the rules and regulations have become more lax along with the training judging by that photo and the grumblings Ive heard from people I've known from high school who went into the military and thus instead being taught to keeping up the image their being taught only to follow orders and thus not the ideals of the military to an extent and its showing through offbase and around civilians.
additional: also I was raised by an airforce man and that was actually how he got started in his trade as an engineer but ironically I dont think I've ever asked him about this.
I'm kind of wondering if its simply because the rules and regulations have become more lax along with the training judging by that photo and the grumblings Ive heard from people I've known from high school who went into the military and thus instead being taught to keeping up the image their being taught only to follow orders and thus not the ideals of the military to an extent and its showing through offbase and around civilians.
additional: also I was raised by an airforce man and that was actually how he got started in his trade as an engineer but ironically I dont think I've ever asked him about this.
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It is not just in the military, it is pervasive through out our society. There is a lack of respect for tradition and history.
In the ER where I work, it is common for staff to address the physicians by their first name. Being old fashion I decline that priviledge.
In the ER where I work, it is common for staff to address the physicians by their first name. Being old fashion I decline that priviledge.
Oldiron
US Veteran
I think it started around '71. I was stationed in San Diego and as a Coasty we mostly followed Navy rules and when I went in ('68) you wore civies or dress uniform when off base. When Zumwalt (Zoomy) took over the navy folks, they went to pot. Would see them roaming around town in dungarees looking like they hadn't been cleaned in a month.
When I left San Diego after 4 years, I was farmed out to the Navy as an instructor at NAS/NATTC Millington (Memphis). In the 2 and a half years I was there every class was worse than the last. Females and all. In '75 it was time to reup so I did some praying, analyzing and soul searching. Conclusion, the military wasn't military any more so I got out.
Larry
When I left San Diego after 4 years, I was farmed out to the Navy as an instructor at NAS/NATTC Millington (Memphis). In the 2 and a half years I was there every class was worse than the last. Females and all. In '75 it was time to reup so I did some praying, analyzing and soul searching. Conclusion, the military wasn't military any more so I got out.
Larry
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